A&Q about 350Z
Q:
Below is the official Nissan North America response to the 350Z tire feathering issue e-mailed to Sport Z Magazine on April 12 at 5 p.m. The full TSB can be downloaded from the Sport Z Magazine download site, http://www.zfilms.org/SportZMag/
David Bexfield
Editor, Sport Z Magazine
www.sportzmagazine.com
Summary
Approximately 40,000 2003 350Z customers will have the warranty extended on their Front Wheel Alignments. If the front toe alignment on these vehicles is not correct, an irregular wear pattern can occur on the inner edge of the front tires. The wear pattern can cause a noise described as "tire roar" or "tire growl." This noise may be most noticeable during low speed braking.
The extended Front Wheel Alignment Warranty for all MY 2003 350Z's will be two (2) years, from the original in-service date. For vehicles experiencing this noise, Nissan will inspect the tires for this irregular wear pattern, and will rotate or replace affected tires per the protocol noted in the technical service bulletin (see attached). For vehicles whose front tires were previously replaced due to tire roar or growl, Nissan will reimburse customers for front tires that were replaced with less than 30,000 miles of usage at the time of replacement based on documented front tire noise complaints (prorated from 21,001 to 30,000 miles).
Background
Over the past year some 350Z owners have experienced a tire noise issue, predominately during low speed braking. This has been described as tire "roar" or "growl." Some owners have also described tire "feathering." It is very important to note that this is a consumer satisfaction issue that does not impact the handling or the safety of the vehicle.
The 350Z was designed for maximum dynamic handling performance and is equipped with tires with optimized handling characteristics. This performance set-up requires very accurate front-end alignment, and Nissan has determined that the 350Z tires are sensitive to any toe-out whatsoever. This noise/excess tire "feathering" issue is not related to camber. Nissan has been following vehicles carefully aligned with no toe-out and has found thus far that, once set correctly, the Z's alignment remains set correctly over time, and that tire noise does not occur on those vehicles.
Nissan engineers have investigated the tire noise issue and determined that, when the noise occurs, the root cause is chassis alignment - specifically the toe adjustment. Toe-out can cause a tire wear pattern (i.e., excess feathering) that creates tire noise. A Technical Service Bulletin (NTB03-006), addressing alignment was issued to all Nissan dealers in January of 2003. In June of 2003 the affected VIN range was identified in NTB03-006A.
Nonetheless, the problem has persisted for some customers due to an apparent failure to properly set the correct alignment. Because of the sensitivity of this vehicle/tire combination to proper alignment, Nissan has advised dealers not to use the "Go/No-Go" color indicators commonly found on some alignment machines. Rather, Nissan is advising dealers that it is critical to refer to the actual alignment number that is displayed for the Toe Setting, and reminds dealers that it is very important not to have any Toe-Out when they are finished aligning the car. This was documented in a revised Technical Service Bulletin (NTB03-006B) in December of 2003. Nissan is also requiring dealers to document proper calibration of their alignment equipment.
Nissan Action
To ensure the highest levels of customer satisfaction, Nissan is extending the warranty for front wheel alignment on customers' 350Zs to 2 years from the original in-service date. Like all Nissan New Vehicle Limited Warranty service, this extended warranty is only available through a Nissan dealership.
Beginning in late April, 2004 Nissan will contact affected 2003 350Z customers by mail. For Model Year 2003 350Z vehicles that exhibit front tire roar or growl noise, during the extended warranty period Nissan will inspect vehicles to determine the wheel, tire and suspension equipment installed on the vehicle. Then Nissan will:
* For vehicles equipped with original equipment tires and wheels (or with genuine Nissan chrome or NISMO accessory Z wheels), Nissan will:
* Inspect the tires for irregular wear pattern on the inside portion of the front tires and, if necessary, either rotate the front tires from side to side or replace the front tires as determined to be necessary by formal repair criteria.
* If tires are either rotated or replaced, check the front wheel alignment and adjust, as needed, to ensure proper toe-in adjustment.
* For vehicles equipped with replacement tires and original equipment wheels (or with genuine Nissan chrome or NISMO accessory Z wheels) , Nissan will:
* Check the front wheel alignment and adjust, as needed.
* For vehicles with replacement tires that are not the original size, or with wheels other than those listed in number 1 or 2 above or, or with suspension modifications other than NISMO-S Tune, this warranty extension is not applicable unless the wheels, tires and/or suspension are first returned to original factory specifications and the vehicle is then presented to a Nissan dealer for repair prior to expiration of this extended warranty.
Note: If it is determined that replacement of the front tires is covered and necessary: Tires with less than 21,001 miles of usage will be replaced free of charge; Tires replaced between 21,001 and 30,000 miles will be prorated and Nissan will pay for a percentage of the tire replacement cost.
Statement:
"On some 2003 MY 350Z's, customers have experienced tire noise described as tire "growl" or "roar." The root cause of this type of tire noise is front-end alignment. Nissan will extend the front wheel alignment warranty for this tire noise to two (2) years, with unlimited mileage. Nissan will contact all customers who may be affected. These customers will be invited to bring their car to a Nissan dealer if they believe they may be affected by this issue. Nissan will inspect the vehicle and perform the appropriate repair which may include wheel alignment, front tire rotation and, in some cases, front tire replacement. All 2003 MY 350Z customers will be notified that they may be eligible for reimbursement of prior expenses related to this warranty extension which were incurred
during the extended warranty period. Reimbursement for repairs or tire replacements due to normal wear are not included in this program. Nissan is committed to a high level of customer safety, service, and satisfaction and is working with its dealers to promptly address this condition."
Attached for reference is the TSB.
Please direct any consumer inquiries to Consumer Affairs at 1 (800) 343-0294
A:
darn he beat me to it i was just about to copy and paste this from my350z.com to here. SO folks this looks pretty promising and it has been a long time in the running but atleast we have somehting substantial now. whewwwwww. ill be getting my new set of front tires shortly seeing as i only got 12k on mine. sweeeeet
---------------------
03 CS Touring
VIN #189
Post Edited (Apr 12, 5:21pm)
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What a shaft...especially for those of us that ordered back in Jan 02. and took delivery in summer 02, we're just about out of warranty. A previous post noted that there would also be a "Customer Retainment Action".... I guess I should hope to live that long...
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chrometouring,
i think it said 2 yrs from in-service date, so it can vary and not necessarily end during summer of this year.
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This sounds a lot like the PDB that Pres. Bush got in Aug. 2001 basically a bunch of gobbledy gook. The bottom line is those who have been waiting, and driving and piling on the miles while trusting in Nissan basically got screwed. Live and learn.
They (Nissan) will never admit that they did anything wrong. The tires are not at fault as many have speculated it is the dealerships (according to Nissan) inabilty to to properly align the cars or so they say. I guess that corporate has thrown the dealerships to the "wolves".
2003 Touring 6MT
CS Black Leather
A:
SHIFT_attention
2003 350Z LeMans Sunset
JWT Pop Charger
Rallitec Q-Shifter
Zainoed (Z1, Z2, Z6, Z18)
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Post Edited (Apr 12, 6:09pm)
Post Edited (Apr 12, 6:11pm)
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Woopty Freaking Do!
How does this help? It doesn't fix the problem. The way I see it, it just helps take a bit of the hassle out of getting tires replaced. The extended warranty means what ... more free trips to the dealership, only to have them turn around and tell you they still don't know how to fix the problem?
New tires for two years? Have fun. That'll make 3 years of pure service joy. Now there is hassle built right into the TSB ... at least it's documented right?
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well hopefully theyve got some updated alignment specs. but atleast its something.
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I'm confused, what is this "original in service date" they are talking about?
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probably when you first took it in for service for the feathering defect, which I guess would technically mean I don't get exactly 3 years of pure service joy ;)
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at least it's something? ... dude, you gonna let Nissan b--ch you around like that?
reminds me of me with this girl I once knew. You see, i really liked her and I'd do anything for her ... and she knew it ... she knew she could get away with anything because being that I was so wrapped around her finger, I'd have to put up with anything ... I had no other choice ... if I wanted the lady (Z), I'd take whatever, no matter how little she decided to give. At least it was something, right?
I hear ya man.
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in service date is the day you took delivery of your Z.
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so whats that mean for '04s? Maybe they think just possibly that maybe there is a slight chance that it could be fixed?
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hey man do you want something or nothing...I would much rather them give me a new damn suspension of course, but what are you gonna do. theres no sense b!tching over it. if it took them this long to just get something down in writting, Carlos isnt gonna say " oh, well a certain lemonman on zcar.com doesnt like our half-assed fix so lets give them all new suspensions". gimme a break. sure its not a fix but itll take some hassle out of it. and frankly with the new front tires that Ill get at around 15k they shoud last me another solid 15k and thats more than i expected out of perfectly good tires. and i really havent noticed any adverse performance just the noise. but i keep my radio up past 20 anyway so i never hear it. true it is NOT a fix but its better than nothing in my book.
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so how does the in-service date play into the free tire replacement for tire mileage under 21,000 miles.
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this doesn't FIX a f'king thing! this just means they'll THINK about replacing the tires if you fit within the parameters!
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hey "man"!!! how's it going? Umm, I want something, because this IS nothing!
I have already gotten 2 new sets of tires and am working on my third.
What am I gonna do? Well, it's not so much a question of what I am going to do because in this battle I am worthless ... so it's more of a question of what my attorney is hopefully doing.
No, Carlos will probably never read this forum, but there IS a sense in bitching over it. How do you think we got this TSB, huh?
Give you a break? Sure, but I guarantee you Nissan won't, just as I am equally sure this TSB won't rid us of a significant amount of hassle in reaching a satisfactory resolution, be it news tires or whatever.
Yeah, 15K, that's what I hear ... along with the loud roar. I agree, no adverse performance ... just the NOISE, which is louder than I like to listen to my radio (sometimes).
No, it's not a fix, but how can nothing be better than nothing? Just a bunch of the same, except on paper this time.
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What this does mean is ....
Nissan is now officially admitting there is a front end problem with the 350Z.
It is a baby step. However, it is in the right direction. I am sure they are working on a fix before the court cases begin to flood in.
GREAT NEWS!!!!!
I am at need of a third front set of tires and am at ONLY 12,500 miles!
-Zanioed '03 Le Mans Sunset Touring Coupe w/ Nav.
Post Edited (Apr 12, 8:26pm)
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PS... Rock on dogstar!
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ZPOE:
Well, all I got out of it was that Nissan thinks dealerships need to do a better job with alignments: the toe-in setting, which is adjustable.
Didn't they admit there was a problem a long time ago with the first TSB? Haven't they been replacing tires?
Maybe I need to re-read.
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this is absolute bullshit.
it doesnt fix the underlying problem and gets them off the hook after two years. my car has been constantly aligned by the dealer and yet the feathering persists. alignment is not the issue and giving me tires doesnt correct the problem.
i am furious. nissan has shafted us big time.
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In most states, two years is the magic cut-off for lemon law claims.
Personally I hope the "fix" works. But I am not even close to convinced. I'll have to wait and see if the recently replaced tires on my freshly aligned Z survive the test of miles. If not, it's mediation --> arbitration --> lemon law time, all before the car reaches that magical two year mark in late Oct.
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tx350z-you are right that many states limit lemon law. however, you and others will have plenty of documentation and evidence well prior to then, if you have to go that route. remember too that nissan has now admitted a problem, and provided a definitive solution that MUST solve the problem within a reasonable number of attempts. if it cannot be solved, you have a lemon case right now. go make lemonade!
2003 350Z LeMans Sunset Track with Nav
No mods
Post Edited (Apr 13, 12:09pm)
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"i'll bet that if the same problems that affected you DURING the warranty period are also there AFTER the warranty period, you (1) have a lemon law/arbitration case, and (2) you have a small claims court case. i'll also bet that nissan knows this, and has given the correct solution."
I'll bet Nissan also knows that by keeping owners locked in this perpetual cycle of alignment after alignment and arguing over whether or not your tires should be rotated or replaced, they will have made it through the lemon law filing period for just about every 2003 350Z owner and when the extended warranty has run out and owners still have feathered tires, Nissan can say "it's not our problem anymore" with no fear of litigation.
The only new information in this document is the extension of the warranty, which makes perfect sense when used as a means to keep people out of arbitration until they are no longer able to file, and a we now have a standardized criteria for determining whether Nissan will or will not replace the tires. As far as any sort of fix is concerned it just is not here. The 2mm total toe guidance has been out since June of 2003. That has not fixed the problem. And all of this business about the correct operation of alignment equipment, which also has been out since December 19, 2003, is total nonsense.
To buy into this argument you must also accept that Nissan Motor Corporation can not do an alignment either. They have known about the problem for at least 17 months and yet the cars just kept right on coming, supposedly out of alignment. Then in June of 2003 Nissan changed the nominal total toe spec from 1mm to 2mm. Obviously there is something else at work here other than a simple case of a few cars being delivered out of spec. And not only did Nissan change the nominal spec to 2mm but they've allowed for no margin of error. This is a totally unrealistic expectation of the alignment abilities of even the best machnine and the best operator. Nissan is simply using the toe adjustment as a means to conceal an underlying fundamental suspension problem.
What is that problem exactly? Well one could probably make some intelligent conclusions based on the fact that the 2004 350's, at some point, got a redesigned suspension while, at the same time, the 2004 models have been mysteriously omitted from the latest TSB. So if the only the 2003 models are so hyper-sensitive to what amounts to an insignificant toe alignment deviation as far as most people are concerned, obviously something must have changed on the 2004 models and it wasn't the tires. It seems to me that Nissan would rather provide some free alignments and throw a few free tires at the problem until we all go away. If you were lucky enough to get one of the 2004's with the new suspension, something tells me that you will not have a problem. Otherwise you are on your own or at least you will be when the bogus warranty extension expires. If you were unlucky enough to buy a 2004 with the old suspension then you will probably get grandfathered in with the rest of us old timers on a case by case basis.
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Tires just started to make noise after 15K miles, not bad I guess. I called my dealer and he will see me this coming Monday. I hope I get a new front set of tires.
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Does anyone know if the problem can be fixed by replacing the suspension components (struts, springs, sway bars, etc)? I'd love to know if there is anyone who had the feathering problem and ended up replacing their suspension - did it solve the problem?
At this point, it may be worth it to me to just pay to replace the suspension than deal with this hassle for as long as I own the car.
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jmark, I hand-wrote RK a note about a week ago when I ordered a set of replacement tires from his service dept. I left him my cell number and asked that he call me or e-mail when he gets a chance. This of course was prior to any indication that Nissan was going to pass this off as they have. If you get RK's ear, please feel free to share my concern. The OEM tires were checked at 3,500 and the car was re-aligned. The tires were ruined at 7,000 miles and I was told that Nissan would replace the tires but I would pay for alignment since Nissan would only re-align once at their expense. I knew this was not the case but opted to delay any action until Nissan could get their act together since AutoWeek had published their position by that time. The tires were gettting very loud at about 10,000 miles and I asked the service dept to go ahead with the replacement tires so long as it would not preclude me from getting the new, permanent fix when it is authorized. Todd assured me that that was the case and oredered the tires. I can only assume now that this is indeed the situation now, as before. I did the right thing to order new tires and maybe Nissan will have it all figured out by the time I need another set. BTW, have you installed your new shocks yet and did you order any other suspension upgrades since we last communicated.
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mweber, I think you share my sentiments exactly. I'll be signing off now for about 24 hrs. When I check back in, I know I'll have plenty of good reading to catch up on. With over 40 responses already, this will probably be a record thread for this site. Maybe 40,000 before we get a resolution. I'm sure there will be a suitable resolution, in due time.
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350ZNEWBIE said:
"remember too that nissan has now admitted a problem, and provided a definitive solution that MUST solve the problem within a reasonable number of attempts."
Right you are noob........ I think Nissan has created a ticking time bomb for themselves (so to speak), by creating a definitive fix and creating a deadline.
The dealers are gonna LOVE this! (meaning hate it!)
This ain't over................................................................
Buy some good tires and get reimbersed!
giZmo
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well put gizmo and newbie, my sentiments exactly. atleast they cant deny it anymore.
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Pezman,
Shocks have been ordered. IMO the bounce is as big a problem as the tire feathering. I should have the Konis installed by May. So far most people seem happy with the shocks. As far as the feathering goes I guess you and I need to find someone else to align our cars. Keep in touch. Here is a link about the Koni's.
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68250&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
Mark
'71 240Z White 904
VIN HLS3022975
'78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
VIN HLS30468702
IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
'03 350Z PPW Track
VIN JN1AZ######109339
Koni SA Sport shocks
350EVO sways
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that's why, understanding corp politics as i do, it's confusing that they would be so adamant that this is the solution.
most of you already have small claims cases. if you have had multiple alignments, and multiple tire sets, you have the case. if you've returned multiple times for the same reason, or even for multiple reasons, you have lemon law cases.
so, with all these things being true and factual and representable, nissan must have found the solution. albeit an inflexible solution (1mm). live by the millimeter, die by the millimeter.
2003 350Z LeMans Sunset Track with Nav
No mods
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this isn't much and not a fix, but at least it's some kind of acknowledgment from nissan. and it means that all of our bitching and moaning (plus the numerous lawsuits) has had an affect. so don't STOP complaining until the problem is truly fixed... because IT'S WORKING!!
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Nissan is smart in the way they are shafting the Z owners. Most problems are on the early production cars delivered from August 02 through Dec 02. The new technical bulletin only gives these people including myself about six months extended warranty even though we had to live with so far 18+ months of growling tires, 5+ trips to the dealership, wheel alignments, tire replacements, having deal with Consumer Affairs who would tell you " first we have heard of the problem" , non cooperative dealers. My last trip to the dealer was a so sorry we have done all we can. Replacing tires still do not solve the problem - it will only get Nissan past the "extended warranty" period!
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The pre-order people who got rid of their cars may be the smart ones afterall, only time will tell. I for one will never buy a 1st year Nissan again.
2003 Touring 6MT
CS Black Leather
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Just replaced my tires, and I have about 20 k miles to my name...
Since I got my car in Jan 03, I will be visiting the Nissan dealership for another joyful checkup before the year ends to check the front end alignment.
Nissan doesn't look like they are really serious about the problem; easier to blame the dealerships for faulty alignment then issue a recall and face the bad publicity.
I'm not really sure why everyone is so happy about the Nissan statement. It doesn't help a bit, or give any hint of a permanent fix. If all of you come back from the dealers without any alignment problems (or tire feathering), I will be amazed. Good luck with the lemon laws too. Most people that read this posts are already doomed from a 12 mo/12 k perspective.
Nissan's only suggestion is that we should continue to go to the dealership for the full extended 2 yr warranty. I guess I'm just a little skeptical that this will truly fix the problem (or that the dealerships will even do it right). Plus, if your tires are over 21 k, you are out of luck for free replacement tires.
Nissan states that the alignment was documented in a revised Technical Service Bulletin (NTB03-006B) in December of 2003. Why haven't the Nissan dealerships implemented these procedures since the beginning of the year? I will take a wait and see attitude before I pad Nissan on the back for a job well done...
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I said it back in Dec of '03 and I'll say it again.......
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=5&i=104950&t=104835#reply_104950
I think MRZOOM and others have it backwards... (no offense to anyone).
Do you know that you can't buy a 350Z that is anything like the '03? You can't. It's one of a kind. The '04 suspension is completely different (not to mention a host of other changes). I also have NEVER thought that my suspension was "bouncy" either (did you guys buy a different car than me?). I drove my car tonight... turned off the TCS and gave it just the slightest amount of pedal and it spun around 75 degress back and forth and I was gone like a rocket! Sitting in my awesome leather seats, I might add and listening to my crappy Bose stereo! Is it my imagination or has my Bose sounding better as it ages? Hmmmmmmm. And yes, my name is giZmo and I HAVE FEATHERING.
Some of you guys think that there are Nissan reps here psyching you out by trying to get you to think that the problems with the vehicle are normal, when in reality, they are collectors pshyching you into selling a collectors item for half price! ZNESS you are a PNESS! You're not getting your hands on my 350Z!
Buy a set of Eagle F1's and get reimbersed!
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Just to round this thread off to an even 60... my new tires go on Monday under the new TSB. I hope this is the last you hear from me regarding the tire/ suspension issue. Doubtful but Hopeful. At the very least, it will be off my mind for a while. It's funny how the level of my loudness has been pretty much proportional to the amount of tire noise I have had to consume. If past performance is any clue, I'll be roaring again in about 4 to 6 months. Let's all hope for the best, but either way, I'll post my results, positive or negative.
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What a damn shame.
Such a great car, such a lousy response from Nissan.
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Pezman,
Hope our dealer gets the alignment right this time. Good luck.
Mark
'71 240Z White 904
VIN HLS3022975
'78 280Z Wine Red Metallic 611
VIN HLS30468702
IZCC #13834 CZC #5664
'03 350Z PPW Track
VIN JN1AZ######109339
Koni SA Sport shocks
350EVO sways
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I'd agree with you if I hadn't had to fight them for four months to get replacement tires. The initially declined to cover the replacement because the car was 13 months old when I took it in with only 9,000 miles on the tires. They had already done an alignment and side to side tire swap.
The new tires were installed just two weeks ago. If they weren't working a delaying action and knew an "official" admintance of the problem was forthcoming, why would they decline to cover the replacement four times? They gave in ONLY after I stated the next step was arbitration.
I love the car. But I do not trust anything coming out of Nissan.
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tx350z, it's sometimes hard to rollout out a change management program to so many dealerships all at once. i suspect the front line at your nissan dealership had not yet been informed. most press releases hit the dealerships at the same time it hits wall street.
arbitration, on the other hand, is a signal to get their respective butts in gear. i'm not surprised that changed their minds. i got a lot more respect from VW after i filed my MVDN. at that point, they became my best friend in "partnering" with me to find the right solution.
they gave me my money back. good partnering on their part.
2003 350Z LeMans Sunset Track with Nav
No mods
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Well they did the tire install... but like I feared, they gouged my wheel about 4 times on the left front. I knew I should have taken pictures before I took it in just for 100% proof of their mint condition before I took the car in.
They told me they would get back to me on repairing it... or other options on Tuesday.
Car rides like a dream now... I can hardly believe it after having driven so long on my saw tooth tires. They had to go and ruin it by screwing up my rim.
Advice... take pictures of your wheels before you take your car in... Your dealer may not admit fault as mine seems to have done at this point... we will see come tuesday.
RJCTouring
_________________
Chrome Silver
Stock Touring - All Options (minus Nav)
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On my first replacement of the tirez it was like driving a different car!! I am about to get my second pair @ 15000. I love my Z. I could care less what others comment. If you don't like the 350Z and own one I am sorry for you. I for one love mine!
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Do you realize that if you were paying for these tires at retail cost, you would be paying as much for tires as you are paying for gas? How far off am I ...Correct me if I am wrong? P.S. I luv my Z too!
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"So I get the SERVICE MANAGER to look at it and he tells me that was not from the tire machine, it was "because of the high performance tires when they get hot and expand over the edge of the rim"."
Boy, that is one load of BS. I bet he is jealous because Carlos Ghosn doesn't pay him enough and you drive a better car than he does. Harumph!
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hmmm... and I've heard this ONLY happens at NISSAN dealerships.
2003 350Z LeMans Sunset Track with Nav
No mods
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"hmmm... and I've heard this ONLY happens at NISSAN dealerships."
I personally think it only happens to Z drivers...