A&Q about 350Z
Q:
Hola all. Bought my first Z and am jazzed. What a ride. I am spending bookoo bucks making it my dream machine and need some assistance from you experienced folks. Here are a list of upgrades I am making. I will add that I am aware that my vehicle is for off road use being a stage 4 bla bla bla.
Stage 4 Stillen Super Charger with upgraded fuel injectors and fuel pump.
Cold Air Intake
Stillen Exhaust and headers. I am told that with Stage 4 headers are OK. But opinions differ...
Upgraded Nismo cams.
Planning on porting heads unless someone tells me it wont help at all.
Brakes are probably going to be AP Racing. Are these the best??? I want performance but not the noise of some of the upper quality brands.
I am told that off the line this would be better than a twin turbo and will probably end up in the 525HP range. Again since this is my first performance baby I understand that HP increases are not cumulative and dont want to be lied too. What do you all think. Where am I wasting my money and where should I go from here? I may have forgot to add mine is a Roadster.
Post Edited (May 24, 7:35pm)
A:
probably the best advice anyone will give you here...become a member at . There is an abundance of forced induction experience over there. For the kind of money you're planning on spending there simply isnt enough knowledge @ zcar.com to where i would feel comfortable letting somone make that kind of decision based on this forum.
---------------------
03 CS Touring
VIN #189
Post Edited (May 23, 10:23pm)
A:
Ditto on the Stillen HP #s/ The most hp you could expect out of a stillen supercharger would be around 340-360rwhp. TT is the way to go if you want any thing over 400hp. There are a couple guys on my350z.com that have fully built motors, 23psi boost, TTurbos making around 700rwhp. Its getting sick out there. If your on a modest budget, go with the turbonetics single turbo. Cheaper install labor cost and avg. rwhp from 380-410 and torque 380-410 ft.lbs. Somewhere in the neigbor hood of 6000$ gets you the entire system with pillar gauges, install, dyno, and ready to run the streets. This is not an exact figure but from what I have seen its close to the avg.
BEN
2006 Acura TL, Black on Black, 6 speed Navi with Brembos.
A:
This lag garbage is just that. Get a nice single/twin turbo kit. Trust me, even if your magical supercharger could produce 500hp 'down low' you wouldn't want it to. At 500hp+ you will probably want just about all the lag you can get unless you are going to ride around on slicks/drag radials or VERY wide rears. The biggest problem with a S/C application for 500-600hp on a motor that doesn't even produce over 300 stock is it eats at the power output. When you put down 500rwhp, your engine is making 600++ to do it. On a turbo setup, it is much more efficient. Supercharger in this case is much simpler and more reliable if done with the same amount of knowledge/cash, but a properly setup turbo system is just as reliable as a stock motor aside from the extra horsepower it provides.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
2nd turbo set-up... from what i hear SCs put more constant stress on your engine...always on...
on the other hand
for turbos, you can adjust the rpms that they engage at therefore also increasing your fuel consuption... but when you want the power just rev up and there it is... :-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
A:
I like turbos better too. Most of the reasons have already been posted. And I do not like having to replace the hood with the Stillen positive displacement, roots type supercharger. And torque off the line, with our already high compression and good low end torque, a good twin turbo puts out so much power at the line, that you will have to use good drag radials just to get traction off the line.
The APS TT that I like is good for 500 hp at the wheels or about 600 hp at the engine (500 cc fuel injectors). You really should build the bottom end of the engine if going over 400 hp at the wheels. There is virtually no lag with these which are Garretts newest, hi tech GT class dual ball bearing, oil lubricated and water cooled turbos. Garrett bills them as the fastest spooling turbos on the planet. Build the engine and upgrade the fuel system further still and this twin turbo is good for well over 600 hp at the wheels. Now that is with the APS test pipes, exhuast and hi flow plenum as well. And like I said, a built bottom end of your engine. 41 lbs air flow per minute from each twin turbo or 82 lbs/min. combined. That is enough air flow for 800 engine HP (you would have to do some head work and cams to get to that power level though.) The reason I like APS is they already have a very much upgraded over stock fuel system including 500 cc injectors, upgraded fuel pump, and a fuel return system. APS has a single T with all the supports systems of the TT for those on a smaller budget. Any of the other TT kits (or the Turbonetics single T) are good but most of them need you to upgrade the fuel system to be safe like APS. Most of the kits skimp a bit on the fuel system for some reason. Also I like the load based real time dyno tuning APS dealers can give over the Turbonetics chip reflash. But i am overkill safety more so than some. JWT is a good kit if you upgrade the fuel injectors and buy a fuel return system. APS has already got all those components, but you can mix and match with the other systems if you know what you are doing.
Regular APS twin turbo kit:
Here is the big APS 3.5" test pipes into 3" true dual exhausts for which I lust (but they are loud, you may want to go for the standard 2.5" test pipes into 2.5" exhaust which is quieter and will flow well to approx. 550 hp to the wheels.)
Back view
underneath view
Since you mention it, APS just came out with an extreme twin turbo up grade, waaaaaay beyond the above turbo kit for the lunatic fringe. It is aimed at 800 hp and above and yes you better build the engine fully and a good many other things with that set up. You better have a lot of money to even think about this. It is a monster! OVER 50 pounds of air/minute in each of the twin Garrett dual ball bearing, oil lubricated and water cooled turbos. 880 cc fuel injectors, Merciful Georgia!
APS EXTREME twin turbo kit:
Post Edited (May 24, 7:04pm)
A:
Here is the standard 350Z APS TT:
I am going to run this kit (but hopefully with the 3.5" test pipes into 3" exhaust) on the stock engine internals at about 450 hp at the wheels or about 540 hp at the engine. It is best to build the bottom end of the engine if going over 400 wheel hp. How long can my engine hold at 540 engine hp. Most are holding up fine at 40 to 50k miles but a few have blown at those power levels. I would expect that I'd get at best 50 to 70K miles at that power level before building the engine. When mine blows, we'll know, ha.
front with the APS 2.5" test pipes and 2.5" exhaust:
back:
Post Edited (May 24, 7:27pm)
A:
I spent a good amount of time on the phone with Stillen rep today. Relayed much of what everyone has shared and I am impressed with all your thoughts. I am going to try what I have planned with a more realistic picture of the numbers I have been quoted. I think with that I will have about 525 at engine and hopefully 400 at the wheels. If that is not fast enough then you will see a used Polished stage 4 for sale on this forum. We will see. For the money I am spending Stillen says I am getting the biggest bang for my buck. GOD I HOPE IM RIGHT>
A:
Why are they telling me that I can do a stage 4 without rebuilding the internals of the engine yet for a Stage 4 they dont feel it is necessary??? I dont quite get it.
A:
you just said the same thing twice... perhaps you don't get it because you have repeated the same thing and over thought it... i've done it before...
but like More Power said... anything above 400 and your gonna wanna build up the bottom engine components... pistons, arms, valves, rings, blah blah blah...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
A:
Thanks to all. I will let you know how things turn out. The next 30 days will be exciting.
A:
it's much better at those power levels to build up the bottom end of the engine. Just getting better forged rods (stock rods are forged but stronger forged rods are better with forced induction), forged pistons, and stud the heads would make the engine much stronger for forced induction. I'll probably lower compression ratio to 9.5 to 1. A lot of people are running those power levels on the stock engine internals, but you better have great fine tuning on a load based dynomemter. A chip reflash is not good enough in my opinion at those power levels. Read this on APS fine tuning and get this with any forced induction kit that you choose. How much bang for the buck will the cheaper way give you if you blow your engine much sooner without the fine tuning?
This type tuning super fine tunes your engine at 160+ engine RPMs/loads. This tuning is critical to your engine holding up. APS dealers can do this. Stillen cannot. I was mildly interested in Stillen way back before the APS kit came out. I have been involved with forced induction for over 20 years. I used to be sponsored by HKS. I am telling you that those 2 kits (Stillen vs. APS) are not even close to equal at the power levels you are describing. And most in the 350Z forced induction community agrees with me. But good luck with whatever you do. If I were going Stillen, I'd stay at the lower power levels which are safer without precison fine tuning and get the Stillen warranty. If you want to go to the higher power, the efficiency of the twin turbos is so much better than the eaton supercharger that Stillen is using in that kit. An eaton supercharger is not in the same league with the newest Garrett GT class, dual ball bearing, turbos if you go to the high power levels. Now that the APS TTs have been out for a while, many people with Stillen are going to APS or say they wish they'd waited for APS or JWT. Virtually no one with APS or JWT says they wish they had an eaton supercharger from Stillen. I am not trying to hurt your feelings, but with a lot of money on this and your engine to boot, I am going to tell you flat out what I think to be the truth. Others can disagree and they have that right. Now you can get a similar setup (to APS) with JWT if you add bigger injectors and a fuel return to that kit. Greddy can get you there too but you better add a lot of things to that kit. It does not even have an upgraded fuel pump! And you can get the fine tuning that Stillen can't give you. Again, the Stillen is pretty safe at low power levels of say 325ish wheel hp. If you go to 400 wheel hp, neither my first, second, or third choice would be Stillen.
Read this on why you need a fuel return system with forced induction. Every elite engine builder I know, and I know many, will tell you a returnless fuel system (which is 350Z stock and you'll be running with Stillen) with high power forced induction is like taking a shower and then putting on the same dirty underwear or changing your oil and and keeping the same dirty oil filter full of dirty oil. Why do you think the prior generation 300ZX twin turbo had a fuel return sytem stock with forced induction?:
I am going to run that power on the stock engine internals with the fine tuning. Who knows, I may get 50 to 70K miles like that under boost. Maybe more, maybe less. Have fun and run the stock engine internally if you want, but realize you are taking a chance. Regardless of what Stillen says or does not say. I am taking a chance even with the advantages of the APS system. Compared to Stillen, APS has a better fuel system (it is better to run a fuel return system with any and all forced induction), better engine management system, larger oil pan with cooling ducts, a shielded crank angle senosr wire, and real time precision fine tuning. Eventually I will have to build the engine. Our VQ has a good chance of going 200K to 250K with stock power, but don't expect that with forced induction on an unbuilt motor. But then again those wonderful acceleration g forces are worth the extra freight to me. Everyone has to decide either way. If you go Stillen, at those power levels, keep posting and I will too and let's see what happens. I wish you good luck regardless of what you decide.
Post Edited (May 24, 11:10pm)
A:
are you saying the sky's not purple?
_____________________________________________
'05 350Z Chrome Silver Touring
'73 240Z
A:
only sometimes...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
A:
Hey zlover57 , I agree with a lot you say. And newzracer needs to hear all that. There are risks to high performance. Including the chance a blown engine will damage the block.
And I agree with you that conventional wisdom says that an aluminum block with aluminum heads is not the best platform for forced induction. However, it is easy to lower the compression a bit when you build the engine. I am going with about 9.5 to 1 compression ratio, but many go down to about 8.7 to 1 CR. But, it was once conventional wisdom that even for naturallly aspirated engines it was best to stay with an iron block and just go aluminum on the heads. Technology has moved on and aluminum heads and blocks hold up well naturally aspirated if done right. And the same thing, IMO has now happened with forced induction with aluminum heads and block. Turbocharging and engine building have come a long way in the last 16 years since the Z32 TT came out. And I was heavily involved with HKS parts on Z32 TTs back in the early 90s. There is a guy on my350Z.com running over 700 wheel hp on a 350Z TT and the engine is holding. Sharif has been running well over 600 rear wheel hp for some time with a Greddy TT on his 350Z.
I have spoken personally to Vinny Ten. Vinny Ten is arguably the best import engine builder with forced induction in the U.S.. He is the famous "Mr. Supra" and he has converted over to 350Zs. Do a google on Vinny Ten, his accomplishments are legendary. He and others tell me that the 350Z engine will hold up if done right. He would not be building 350Zs and turboing them if they wouldn't. And he is putting turbo kits on street cars, also. Below is a stock body 350Z whose turbo and largely stock 350Z engine was built by Vinny Ten. It holds together pretty good. I have talked to him in person about this engine last year. It is a mostly stock 350Z all aluminum engine. About all he did he said was go to very strong pistons and Carrillo H beam rods. Those H beam (not to be confused with I beam) rods are built like God intended, ha. Incredibly strong. He is even running the stock350Z plenum. And he is running 33 psi of twin turbo boost and putting out over 1500 hp to the rear wheels. Below is this car in action running an 8.33 sec. qtr. mile last year at 176 mph. And he is even running drag radials, not slicks. That proves it can be done. But I agree with a lot of what you say and even when I build the engine, I am going to stay around 550 to 600 hp at the wheels. I do not have Vinny Ten's pocket book to push the performance envelope like that. But, I am one of the belivers who thinks you can run high turbo boost on an all aluminum engine if you really set it up really good. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. But yes early on some of the incomplete turbo kits did blow 350Z engines (all the forced induction kits except for APS still skimp on the fuel system and are unsafe without upgrading, IMO), but in the last 2 years we are putting out incredibly more power with impressive reliability with 350Zs.
But there are a lot of things that have been learned and conventional wisdom is being rewritten that the 350Z engine will hold up at high turbo boost and power levels if done right. Technology and tuning has caused this. But yes, if you are going to run the big power, you sure as hell better have it set up right. It will be interesting to see how well my engine does hold up at the approx. 460 hp to the wheels which is approx 550 hp at the engine I will be running on the stock engine internals with twin turbos.
Here is Vinny Ten's mostly stock internals twin turbo 350Z engine, only different pistons and rods, 1500 hp, stock bodied 350Z running an 8.33 sec. qtr. at 176 mph.
Post Edited (May 30, 7:59pm)
A:
Here is another one of Vinny Ten's monster boost twin turbo 350Zs running 6.6 sec. qtr. at 215 mph. This 350Z does not back down to Supras or Z32 TTs. Realize that the 350Z has only been out less than 4 years now and a lot of things are still being learned. So running big power does carry risks, but it always will. Now I am not knocing Supra or Z32s, they are great cars and I pay homage and respect to them. But the 350Z is becoming a very formidable challenger out there as far as running boost. But if you were to set a Z32 up with all the latest technology, it would be a monster as well.
There is a benefit to running my car stock internally the the twin turbos at about 460 hp to the wheels. IF the engine holds up, of course. But at that CR and the incrediblly fast spool up of the latest Garrent GT series twin ball bearing racing turbos, there is no turbo lag. throttle response and power is huge and instantly on demand. Garrett bills these as the fastest spooling turbos on the planet and they are impressive.
6.6 sec. qtr twin turbo 350Z at 215 mph. BE SURE TO TURN TH SOUND UP as this twin turbo 350Z takes no prisoners (yes I know it is sacriledge to turn a nice sports car into a pure dragster but it does prove a point about the VQ engine.):
Here is another run by this 350Z. Note the reaction of the pit crew at the very end of the video.:
Post Edited (May 30, 8:26pm)