APS Extreme Performance 350Z TT Fuel System

A&Q about 350Z
Q:

Here's a short list for the APS 350Z Extreme Performance fuel system, that goes beyond the fuel system included in the APS 350Z TT kit (standard kit fuel system is good for 500 wheel hp or approx 602 engine hp).
1) 880 cc fuel injectors
(The above 880 cc injectors are secondary fuel injectors for each cylinder that are additional to the 500 cc primary injectors for each cylinder already contained in the standard APS 350Z TT kit - I edited this post to include this sentence as the way I posted this originally caused confusion - my apologies.)
2) billet fuel rails with twin fuel regs
3) full fuel return system
4) bolt in hi volume twin fuel pump assembly
This large APS fuel system will be sufficient fuel supply for around 1000 hp.
This extreme performance fuel system is intended for when you go beyond the 600 engine hp power levels that the fuel system in the standard APS 350Z TT kit was designed for. Remember you really should go with better forged rods and pistons if you go over 500 wheel horsepower or about 600 engine hp. (APS recommends rods and pistons at over 400 wheel hp or 482 engine hp for opitimum engine longevity.)
The beauty of this extreme performance fuel system is that it retains the larger (than stock) 500 cc fuel injectors that you already get with the APS 350Z Twin Turbo kit. The extreme performance fuel system ADDS the above Bosch injectors as secondary fuel injectors and these will be mounted in the APS high flow plenum (upper part of the intake manifold system). That way the smaller primary injectors (from the standard kit) give better precise fuel injection at idle and at low, and medium to high power and boost levels for better reponse, smoothness, and fuel economy - as compared to if APS just gave you some ultra big assed primary replacement fuel injectors only and called it a day. The secondary fuel injectors only come online under high boost very high power situations when the red mist rises and you need to haul some serious a$$.
Here is the early info on the big fuel system about to be released
I don't really need this extreme performance fuel system until I build the engine for over the 540 to 600 engine hp I will be running with the stadard kit APS 350Z TT. As some of you know, I am scheduled for a March/April 06 install in windy Chi town, but I still dream of this fuel system to die for, for later. Think of it as the "big stick" you keep in your back pocket like the afterburners on an F15 Eagle or F22 Raptor fighter jet. "Warp Engines now online, Captain." "Thank you, Scotty!"
This big fuel system compliments the 3 inch exhaust and 3.5 in test pipes are also needed when going over the 600 engine hp where the APS 2.5 inch true dual exhaust and test pipes start building too much back pressure for optimum.:
APS 3 " exhaust
APS 3.5" test pipes
Post Edited (Jan 23, 7:19pm)
A:

Damn! 880cc injectors, dual fuel pumps... thats some crazy stuff!
880cc injectors are just plain huge. That should be big enough for 1000HP to the rear wheels. And 1000HP is almost just completely silly without AWD. Can you imagine trying to drive your 1000HP car around with RWD without breaking your tires loose in every gear? I understand there are always people out there who will spend the money to get the highest power numbers on the planet with their car, but theres a point at which it becomes completely impractical.
The part of the system I don't quite understand is the twin fuel pumps... Whats the point of that? Why can't one higher capacity fuel pump work just fine?
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1985 300ZX n/a
A:

You make some extremely good points phxZ31! That kinda power is maybe more than you need for the street. I plan to have a toggle switch put in that lets me run 2 different APS twin turbo engine management maps. The first map will be tuned for 93 octane gas and good for about 550 to 600 engine hp. Which is about all you need for the street use and sedate commuting. ha.
The second map available on the toggle switch will only be tuned to go up to about 725 engine hp for use at the drag strip. Where I already have 2 extra rims on which I am definitely going to mount the MT ET drag radials. That is about as far as I plan to go. That way I won't be breaking axles and driveshafts and such. Or not as likely to break things, anyway. I really think I can be satisfied with that power level. GRD in Chicago can put me in the toggle switch and the 2 maps, no problemo.
I don't know why the twin fuel pumps vs. one large fuel pump. Good question. This fuel system has not been released yet and I plan to ask that question. Maybe room/space/install situations necessitated 2 fuel pumps? I don't know. I really kinda like the idea of only one fuel pump myself as you mentioned. I ran 2 fuel pumps on my mitsu eclipse and larger fuel injectors under high boost. The extra fuel pump was under hood and added complexity that I would just as soon do without.
A:

I don't often post on this website, but feel I must chime in here. Those kind of power levels are absolutely CRAZY fast and only fringe gear head turbo boost hooligans even think about such power levels!! And all I got to say is....now ya' talkin' pardner! I was wondering when you were going to get up to speed with somethin' interesting, MP! It's about time!
A:

A toggle switch is an excellent idea, if you have a computer that will allow two different programs to be stored in and switchable like that. Seems like a really good idea.
There are systems such as Romulator or Zemulator which allow you to use a PC to interface with your ECU and change values for tweaking fuel maps and timings and what not. I will probably use one of these systems when I first get my engine built in order to reprogram the ECU for the larger injectors and higher redline. Unfortunately, my stock ECU will not allow me to store multiple maps and switch between them in real time.
I envision using a completely standalone system such as SDS when I complete the project though. This replaces the ECU with a completely standalone system. What I want eventually, is something that will interface with my laptop and allow me to make tweaks to the system in real-time... in other words while I'm driving. This way I can store different programs into my computer for different applications. I hope to be able to have a mode for maximum fuel economy, maximum power, and i'll run a program to reset the stock redline and lean the mixtures for emissions purposes.
I'm starting to want things way out of my monetary range however. A realtime engine management system would cost nearly $5000 to purchase and months to figure out how to tune it properly.
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1985 300ZX n/a
A:

Sounds like serious giggles. Good luck an enjoy. Yes this all does get rather expensive! I know Tuan at GRD has a computer lap top that lets him tune while driving just as you say. As well as the load based dyno fine tuning he does. He and others like him are sooooooo lucky to have such toys and jobs. I just save and get these things slowly over time. Keeps things interesting when my job gets boring, ha. Enjoy.
If you can hook up with the right people they'll let you borrow toys like that to cut down on expenses. I used to when I worked at turbo performance center part time as a seond job. I started off just answering tech questions over the phone for customers in exchange for racing sponsorship and and help with getting performance parts and installs. It was just a second job so I did not start off getting any pay other than the items mentioned. That is the way to get your foot in the door and the rest is up to you. When I get more time, I may try to do something like that again. If you have any real good tuners in your area it is worth a try. The fun times and BS I got to participate in and the cool cars I got to drive and help modify were some of the highlights of my life.
A:

>APS recommends rods and pistons at over 400 wheel hp or 482 engine
> hp for opitimum engine longevity
I'm glad you mentioned this, it adds a dose of sanity. Keep this in mind folks, no more blown engines, 'k?
A:

i know of a couple of shops around here i thought about something similar... but with a full time job that consumes the day (2-11) i don't really dont have a lot of time... i would also like to see if they would give you certian discounts for advertising on your car? like on of my friends had alamo autosports on the front of his car and they usually just made him buy the parts anything fairly easy to install was done for free... cam gears, intake, pulleys, exhuast, and such... i don't know what he has done now, because i haven't talked to him in like 3 years but... i'm sure he is still racing...
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Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
A:

I hear you. All i worked there was just every other friday (I'm off regular job due to compressed work schedule) and Saturdays till about 2:00 p.m.. Some of that time I/we were working on my car so it was a great deal.
And I raced a lot and passed out his cards when people asked my how a lil 2.0 L four banger could run so fast, ha. Shops like that have the welding/fabrication skills, lifts, tools, and infrastructure to really give you a boost on things like that as I'm sure you know. A lot of the time I worked there I was just going to pick up parts or wheels and stuff on short notice and delivering cars. just a thought.
A:

You're right z32d00d, one does need to build the bottom of the engine to run the really big power. As I also mentioned. But, more and more is being learned about the 3.5 VQ and it is holding up better than many people think IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT FUEL AND ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS properly set up and fined tuned correctly on load based dynos. i.e. a chip reflash is not fine tuning on a load based dyno by an expert. I know several guys running 600 engine hp on stock 350Z engine internals for tens of thosands of miles with APS TTs with no problemos. Vinny Ten is running 1500 hp to the wheels with a twin turbo 350Z engine that is mostly stock items other than rods and pistons. Stock block, heads, valves, cams, etc., even stock plenum he told me. That was about a year ago. Now of course Vinny Ten's 350Z is not going to hold up like you want a street car to at those power levels. But the fact it holds together for a good long time like that tells me something. Conversely, a LOT of Greddy TT engine's have blown at stock boost what 6 psi, cruising down the road at 3200 rpms. Why? Reference the 3rd sentence of this post.
It will be interesting to see how my car does hold up on stock engine internals with well over 500 engine hp. Again, there is alway risk with turning up the wick for high performance. People who are not willing to accept that, should stay stock, I agree.
A:

880cc injectors wont run 1000hp safely by any means. 880cc injectors can rufly handle 880BHP and thats a ruff estimate I dont feel like doing the math to figure it out.
Currently parting out 1990 300zx TT.
A:

Well I know that a shop I go to just finished building a Supra Turbo with 740cc injectors that dynoed at 789RWHP, so seems to me that if you know how to tune it properly you should be able to get 1000HP with 880cc injectors.
And just for comparisons sake, I've read of z31 n/a's throwing down 165-170whp with the stock 160cc injectors and a bunch of other mods, so thats roughly 185-190 engine HP with 160cc injectors. Its definitely possible to get a higher than 1:1 ratio when you're talking hp:cc.
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1985 300ZX n/a
A:

I said safely. You can do it but it involves doing things in a manner that I dont personally like. I like to keep keep it to where the max duty cycle is at 80% not 115%, id like to not have to keep raising the fuel pressure to make the injectors spray out more fuel then they think they are and so on. But, thats just me.
Currently parting out 1990 300zx TT.
A:

Oh man!!! Let me take a ride in this thing!!!
I'm in chi town!!!
There are some wicked fast cars running around here, but that is just silly!!!
On the injectors, there are too many factors to say a definate horsepower per cc level, but 1 hp per cc has been used a lot in the past.
Also remember, these are secondaries to the 500 cc's already in there.
Wow
Mario
1976 280Z - Dad's Z (turbo swap?)
1978 280Z - Stock Rebuild | 5 Speed | Twice Pipes | Gutted
1982 280ZX - Turbo | MSnS-E | 5 Speed | Large NPR IC
BROKE: Will build computers, webpages, networks, MS units, troubleshoot computers for money
A:

I am not talking about mods like that. There's a guy who used to post in the z31 forum who had dynoed his n/a z31 at 170rwhp. His only mods were intake, exhaust, attached an Apex'i SAFC2, and retarded the cam timing by 8 degrees.
With 4 simple mods that could be installed for about $1200, he was able to make an otherwise stock n/a z31 jump from stock 160hp to just barely nipping at the feet of the z31 turbo cars. The z31 turbos come with 200hp and on the dyno usually output about 175hp.
There are also guys who use the adjustable cam gears on their vg30 equipped trucks to gain significant amounts of horsepower. There are plenty of safer ways of improving the efficiency and power of your engine without taking any fuel system component above its specified tolerances. 880cc can do a lot more than 880hp, if the entire system as a whole is tuned properly. I wouldn't ever do something like trick my injectors to put out more fuel than they are rated to.
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1985 300ZX n/a
A:

I understand conceptually what cville300zx is saying and I agree with him conceptually. A lot of people try to get a better fuel supply on the cheap by merely increasing fuel pressure so that the injectors spray more fuel than they were designed for as boost rises. He is saying he'd rather have his system designed so that your power goals are supported by the injectors maybe putting out 80% capacity rather than 110 percent capacity. And as we know, as turbo boost pressure rises, injectors without a fuel return system may put out less fuel than you think from their specs. So you can run into running lean at high rpms and high turbo boost pressures. And running lean is BAD detonation engine destruction city. See Greddy et al for reference.
What I don't think cville300zx is taking into account is that in the APS extreme performance fuel system you also have the regular smaller primary (but larger than stock) 500 cc fuel injectors for each cylinder that you bought when you installed the standard APS 350Z twin turbo kit fuel system.
It is better to have medium size injectors like these primary 500 cc injectors for precise fuel metering when your engine is at low to medium power cruising around town. But for ultra high horsepower (over 600 flywheel horsepower) applications, the APS Tall Boy hi airflow plenum (replaces your factory upper intake manifold) has provision for an additional 6 auxiliary (secondary) 880 cc fuel injectors - one for each intake runner. So you cruise around town and at low to medium to even fairly high power on the primary 500 cc fuel injectors for good crisp performance, gas mileage, and throttle response. During these situations, the secondary 880 cc fuel injectors do nothing. They are just the big stick in your back pocket that will come online only when you want to kick some serious a$$.
These secondary 880 cc injectors are controlled by the APS unichip engine management system which piggybacks our factory ECU. Only under high boost do the secondary fuel injectors come online and they are precisely utilized to maintain the air/fuel ratio to whatever you have it tuned to be - like 11.5 to one under high boost. This is all ultra fine tuned at 168 points in the engine's rpm and load band by the APS tuning guru in Chi town that I will be making a pilgrimage to see to install and tune my kit - in order to run great under all driving power settings. This is actually achieving what cville300zx wants. And that is adequate fuel availability with the injectors NOT at or over 100 percent capacity.
At the 725 ish engine hp that I hope to run when I build the bottom of the engine, these secondary injectors will be adding the necessary additional fuel over and above the primary 500 cc injectors and they will be very very under stressed doing that. (I am never going to 1000 hp.)
Now APS could have gone a FAR easier, cheaper route to all this to get the fuel for high boost high power, but that route stinks IMO and they did not do this. Instead of a primary and a secondary fuel injector for each cylinder, they could have just had one ultra big assed fuel injector per cylinder to get the necessary fuel. Problem is a huge fuel injector like this does not give you crisp engine response around town and at low to medium power conditions. And your fuel mileage will not be as good. I have experienced this situation in real world conditions before on other turbo cars and believe me you won't like it just commuting around town. You won't get crisp engine performance at low to medium power settings and you won't be happy.
APS approach is very different than these cheapo forced induction kits that give you a bigger fuel pump and call it a day. And spray more fuel than the factory fuel injectors were meant for. And as cville300zx is saying, that is not as good. Yes the APS TT kit costs more, but it is a better more complete kit. Some people think I am an APS whore. That may be true, but it is because they are the only 350Z kit that does it right. Upgrade the other kits and they can do about as good. But the kit makers don't tell you that you need to upgrade and most people don't. How do you spell KABOOM like z32dOOd is talking about? Some people then just jump to the obvious and say, "oh Z33s can't safely run boost". I say it is that most of the kits out there cost less, don't do it right and blown engines are the result.
That is why I criticize the JWT kit along with the other kits. They have a 350 whp fuel system on a 350Z car that they are touting as running 400 whp. Yes you can do that. Yes this route will help JWT get CARB cert and therefore make a lot of money selling more kits.. Yes you WILL damage your engine long term. JWT will then tell you that you did something wrong and you'll throw up your hands and shout 350Zs are POS and can't run boost. IMO it is the forced induction kits that are POS and the 350Z does surprisingly good IF YOU DO IT RIGHT.
Hundreds of APS TT 350Z have been installed and not one engine has blown that was installed and tuned by an APS dealer. There have been a few problems with APS kits self installed and/or non APS dealer installed and non tuned by an APS dealer. Truthfully, a TT kit for a 350Z is not the easiest thing to install and tune properly.
Post Edited (Jan 23, 4:11pm)
A:

Hey phxZ31. I hear you. I left sanity waaaay behind the first time i took a ride in a Z32 TT packing about 500 wheel hp. It is far too late for me, save yourself. Boost is addicting and once you lose your virginity, your eyes are opened and you can never go back. Ha ha, just kidding I know you have turbo experience from your posts. This is advice to others who may be comtemplating going turbo and are undecided. As far as APS is concerned you are correct. Those guys....are outta their minds! Throw me in that old briar patch, he he.
A:

Man I am seriously wanting to change direction and go with the APS 3" exhaust and 3.5" test pipes rather than the 2.5 " exhaust and test pipes. Look at the 3"/3.5" setup on the picture at the APS website showing underneath the car. That set up looks more oem than our oem, IMO. I have listened to the sound at the webite and love it. Granted the sound on a pc is not always like the sound in real life. The 3"/3.5" set up is just clean in fit and looks good to me. And at my initial boost pressures (11.5 psi) it will help some and help a lot more when I later run higher boost and upgrade with the APS big fuel system.
Below is an APS website discussion of how load based dyno engine mapping and tuning of the APS unichip engine management system that piggybacks our factory ECU is ultra fine tuned at 168 points in the engine RPM/load band to ensure proper boost/timing/fuel are used to maintain precise air/fuel ratios, etc. This explains part of what I posted before about running one very precise engine tuning map for one boost and power setting and using a toggle switch use a good bit higher powered precise tuning map stored in memory. Both are load based dyno fine tuned for the octane gas you will be running as well.

This fine tuning along with the fuel system are 2 of the keys to high power with safety. Don't leave home without them, ha. This is head and shoulders better than a chip reflash IMO. The reason is that every 350Z engine runs a little different - even same year, same spec., one came off the assembly line right after the other - still run a little different. Only individual, real time, load based dyno fine tuning does it right, IMO.
Post Edited (Jan 23, 4:33pm)
A:

You are correct I didnt realize it came with 12 injectors primarys and secondaries that being the case awesome and I retract my previous statements about it not being able to handle 1000hp.
Currently parting out 1990 300zx TT.
A:

wasnt there a car made, that was dressed up with a bow tie, i think they call it a corvette or something-anyways wasnt it like a zr1, that did the same thing, running a primary and secondary injector set up
93 z32 convertible=pearl white, 5 speed
jwt pop-charger, hks hypers, asp underdrive pulley
86 z31 na=super white, 5 speed
A:

The 500 cc primary fuel injectors come in the APS TT kit itself. These and the TT kit fuel system are sufficient up to about 600 hp at the engine. After that, only if you go above 600 engine hp do you need to buy the APS 350 Z extreme performance fuel system upgrade which contains the 6 additional secondary 880 cc fuel injectors. Combined, you should have plenty of fuel in the equation.
It is my fault, the way I worded my initial post at the beginning of it, it sounded like you are using only the 880 cc injectors and that is good for 1000 hp. My bad. That was confusing on my part.
Post Edited (Jan 23, 7:13pm)
A:

Hey mario_83_280ZX_NA, two of the best 350Z forced induction tuners in the U.S. are in Chicago. It is vastly unfair that you folks have 2! That is 2 that I know of, hell you probably have more. Which makes it even worse.
By the way, the guy I'm going to in Chi Town, does the load based dyno tuning and then also tunes it on the road with a lap top as well. It is expensive for me to go that far from MD, but he is one of the best. Man, I am getting seriously antsly to get out there and get this puppy installed!!!!! Is the weather suffiiently less snowy in Chicago by mid March usually to make this trek more feasible.?
Post Edited (Jan 23, 7:01pm)
A:

Hey ssm86, was it the ZR1 corvette. the one with the Yamaha engine? Not sure...
A:

hey more power... what do you have now??? the APS 2.5"??? are you saying that you alread have it and want to get another???let me know....
anyways...i've heard the 3" exhuast also...but on my laptod i have the Bose desktop speakers hooked up... and believe me it sounds BADASS... the only thing on the website that sounds better is the 'Vette but it has the stock exhuast... anyways... i still can't understand how Bose can make such great desktop speakers but suck so bad at car audio...
but let me know about the exhuast... email prefered...
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Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
Post Edited (Jan 24, 9:47pm)
A:

I don't have it installed yet (2.5") so they may let me swap it out or something. No I can't afford both. See the other thread I put up about the APS extremelly high flow catalytic converters for the 3 in. exhaust. That is supposed to quieten it down (3" exhuast) some and be street legal and environmentally cool as well. And still sooo exhaust NON restrictive that it will elimated most or all of my back pressure issues up to some pretty incredible power levels. And the thing is I can take off the high flow cat converters when I want to for the drag strip in about 10 minutes and put them back on for the street. I don't know all the details yet, I am working this out as I go along! But it sure is interesting.
A:

alright well let me know... I bet you can trade since it wasn't installed... but if not i have a proposition...good luck...
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Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
A:

Sounds great. And if you want a slightly used APS 2.5 inch exhaust, there are some other guys that will almost surely be moving up to the 3 inch exhaust who are running high boost. I am sure you can pick one up. Unless you are going to run 10 psi or more, the 2.5 inch exhaust and test pipes will be just as good as the 3" exhaust. It is probably 12 psi when the 3" exhaust starts really being a whole lot better. At the stock kit 8 to 9 psi, there is no reason to get the 3" exhaust other than looks, IMO. You can still run 400 + wheel hp or 482 + engine hp without needing the 3". That is about the power I was running with my eclipse turbo awd at the end and that is plenty fast for a street car. I mean pretty damn fast, IMO.
Post Edited (Jan 25, 11:40pm)
A:

Do you know when the fuel system will be available with the dual pumps? I have been searching the net for a system like that and APS seems to be the only company that is in the PROCESS of making one. I tried the linkin your post but it doesnt go anywhere.
Ryan Stout
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