General Chat
Q:
Well I guess there is a FIRST for everything. I was running the car and sure as you have a mother the timing jumped almost 180 degrees.
There were about four of us standing around scratching our heads over that one. BUT, it did do just that.
There were the standard possibilities, the oil pump gear cracked, sheared the key. Twisted the distributor shaft. Munched the oil pump gear.
I pulled the distributor cap and yes the car would not start, and the rotor was nearly 180 degrees out of the correct timing mark.
Then I am thinking I am not going to get this car home, I have to pull the front cover to fix it. Keep in mind the car was 100 miles from home.
I pulled the oil pump expecting to see the worst, but found everything in order, the gears good, the distributor good, the oil pump good. No flat spots on the drive gears, and I have the Nismo bronze drive gear.
The FRICKIN gear on the distributor drive shaft spun on the shaft.
I have NEVER heard of this before, Jim Wolf has NEVER seen it before, Clark never has seen it before, Tony has never seen it before, I have never heard mention of it before.
A first I guess. Like I said, if there is any weak point, Zelda will bring it to light. Zelda demands nothing less then perfection, little Bit@h LOL.
I was not able to finish up the tuning.
The other thing that happened was the MSD coil was creating a misfire and that also caused me not to get the car finished up. This is the second coil I have put on this car from MSD oh in about 15,000 miles. Dont start thinking mis application or anything like that. I am running the 6A trigger module from them and the biggest coil they have, and they are just failing. As far as I am concerned they are done! I use to work for Mallory Electric and NEVER had a problem with their old bakelite coil. Total crap, I drove the car to work yesterday and poped the hood, and I could see the blue glow on the sides of the coil to the steel core. I called MSD and they assured me the coil was alright. I made sure to explain the situation to them very well. Hell I even had one of my electronic engineers take a look at the coil hand had him standing there when I called MSD. No the coil is alright.
That little exercise cost me a day wages, 300 miles driven, 10 gallons of race fuel and a total waste of my time and day, AND the car STILL is not tuned to full potential. Bia!
signed pseudotechnician view point, Sniper S^$ker, with girly arms : UCC 1-207
A:
Not sure about the distributor drive gear spinning out like that. I thought they were staked with a pin...but I've been away from my car for a year now....bored off my ass in San Clemente, CA wishing I was in Texas.
Anyway, I've been following your build and I'm curious to know how the power felt before the distributor crapped out.
Realize that you didnt have it tuned yet, but you've made a lot of upgrades and just wanted to know if it feels stronger (as if you you can tell the diff between 500 hp and whatever you're pushing now......ha ha).
78 280Z GNose,
71 Nissan Skyline Hakosuka
74 Nissan Skyline Kenmeri
A:
If it wasn't for a Distributor Mechanic being there and mentioning that he had seen another customer that was cracking drive gears and spinning the drive gear on several occasions, we would have still been there wondering.
It was a simple test: Mark the shaft, reinstall it, set the timing, make a run to hysterisis, and then recheck timing.
Was 20 degrees before the run, was 14 degrees after the run.
Slipped 6 degrees!
Who was it that definitively stated: "These engines DO NOT jump time!"
I guess they better rephrase that, huh? Like I said, "never say never"...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
seen that happen on Chevy's before.. but not on a Z.
'81 280ZX-N/A 2+2 - stolen on 11-9-2006 :-( - recovered 11-13-2006 :-D
'77 280 - now back to being my project car.
'76 280 2+2 - parts car - slowly being stripped
A:
Is the gear pined?How was the Nismo gear installed?press fit?
A:
Hi David, the gear is not pined on the shaft, none of them are, but it will be now!
The Nismo gear is identical to the stock steel gear, but it is made of bronze.
signed pseudotechnician view point, Sniper S^$ker, with girly arms : UCC 1-207
A:
From memory my gear is scintered bronze,I have to pull it out soon so I will check.
Keep up the great work Jeff !
A:
Would going to distributorless ignition eliminate this problem for good?
I didn't have a Clue??!!! Until I found Blue...
Blue's Z car tips -
A:
read my mind....time to go to a crank trigger and coil packs jeff
Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the Gun
A:
Yes, distributor less ignition, such as Tech 3, would solve this problem.
However, the 1950's distributor technology along with dumping mucho money into JWT is much more desirable so you can get stranded 100 miles from home and wait months on end for a new program.
Not to mention that after all Jeff's hard work assembling this setup he gets no credit for how it runs because he doesn't know how to tune it!
:)
--------------------
www.SpeedShopThagard.com
Garrett Turbo Dealer
3.1L TwinTurbo L28
10.62@134.1
A:
I'm not in love with Mallory coils either..... Third one on my car, at $100 a pop. This one seems to be alright, but years of use with Accel coils mounted just about every way you can imagine, no leaks, good performance. Mallory? Better mount that bad boy straight up and level or you will get oil all over the place. I fabbed an aluminum bracket this time that positions the coil flat and level.....we'll see.
One more coil problem for me, and it's back to Accel.
Ken
'82ZX n/a 2+2
'02 Sportster XL1200C
A:
Someone mentioned that very same solution, 24OZ, right after the diagnosis was confirmed.
Mr. P replied I was a part of the human anatomy classified as "spinchter", towards the end of the alimentary system...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Dec 15, 10:13pm)
A:
"Not to mention that after all Jeff's hard work assembling this setup he gets no credit for how it runs because he doesn't know how to tune it!"
Actually, that's untrue. He was running the car on his own burned prom and swapped in the JWT box for THEM to do the final tune and then compare it with what he had come up with thusfar on his own box...
Jeff can burn the Z31 Chips, as well as Bernard. They are an evil duo undermining the monopoly JWT has on the Z31 Boxes---should they unleash their talents a dark force would be loose on the planet!
LOL
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
<Would going to distributorless ignition eliminate this problem for good?>
<read my mind....time to go to a crank trigger and coil packs jeff>
Well guys, if you really looked at my setup of the engine, you would have noticed a 7 1/4" 60-2 trigger wheel attached to the the damper, in fact the car is basically setup to run a fully sequential system, with individual coil packs, a VG trigger sensor, air temp sensor, and water temp sensor. The ONLY thing that needs to be completed is the wire harness for the ECU. I have that in mind, in fact, I just happen to have a new cover that has been modified and the distributor base part of the cover totally removed, just sitting there ready to go. Also, I am sure most of you, if not all, excluding Tony, are not aware of the fact that the LD28 utilizes a oil pump drive gear, FROM NISSAN, that has only the oil pump drive, and the rest of the shaft to the distributor is not there. You simply slide the drive gear into the locating bearing part of the cover and install the pump, No cutting, no blocking off the dist crap at all.
<Yes, distributor less ignition, such as Tech 3, would solve this problem.
However, the 1950's distributor technology along with dumping mucho money into JWT is much more desirable so you can get stranded 100 miles from home and wait months on end for a new program.
Not to mention that after all Jeff's hard work assembling this setup he gets no credit for how it runs because he doesn't know how to tune it!>
Again James, open MOUTH and insert foot!
Your highly thought of TEC III system has disappeared into OBSELSENCES! As a matter of fact James! I just happen to know one of the engineers that developed the TEC, TECII, and the TECIII system. Funny thing about that system, seems some of the chips utilized in that system were proprietary devices, designed and built by a chip manufacturer that has been bought by another company, and with the subsequent sale and purchase of the company a number of years ago, that particular chip is NLA, you do know what NLA means right( NO LONGER AVAILABLE) which in the grand scheme of things equates to NO SUPPORT!
The system I have choosen unlike you and your TEC III obselete system, is made up od 21St centuary technology. In fact this system, a HARVARD developed 4 (yes FOUR) parallel processor configuration clocking at 160Hhz, is a far cry from the old 8088 procesor clocking at 4 Mhz, but you know what is processing speed and the ability to process multiple input devices at the same time have to do with fuel management right. Just add more fuel and you will be alright, DONT GO LEAN MAN, DONT GO LEAN.
Just incase you did not realize one thing also James, SURE I dumped mucho money into the inferior, antiquated, neanderthal, NISSAN PRIMARY engine control unit, that has been utilized until present day, with the approperiate control updates such as variable cam timiing to name one feature, I feel like I got off cheap. Realizing that NISSAN spent millions and millions of dollars, utilized a complete hardware/software engineering department of PhD's like yourself, to develop and mass produce engine control units for EVERY one of their vehicles, I tend to think that maybe I was not to unrealistic to capitolize on all of that knowledge and engineering, but I guess my little feeble little mind could not have possibly thunk of that now could I.
Let me see no credit because I don't know how to tune it. Well James, there again you are out of order. The fact of the matter is that I do infact know how to tune the ECU, efficient definetly not the best, understand the operation and software I definetly understand. Because I don't blab all of my knowledge and understanding on this forum, or any other for that matter, doesn't imply or mean that I do not know exactly what is going on.
I do realize on thing though, JWT does have the dyno, Clark is a very effective tuner of the NISSAN equipment and fast. Having a dyno that is easily utilized now, I had little problem getting the car tuned. I simply called Monday, and I was getting tuned Wednesday, fast enough for you? Some things have changed for the better no doubt.
Now, I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, and NEVER claimed to be, but I have learned a few lessons, and one of those lessons is that I don't have to be the sharpest guy, unlike you would indicate from your post and earlier posts historically. I do however, have the ability to utilize the REAL sharp guys to help me and to ultimetly obtain the results I desire, similar to people like Henry Ford for one, and oother notable individuals in history. I dont feel the need to be considered the best, but what I do need is to get the desired results I want, regardless of what others think of me, in fact I firmly believe there are people who consider me stupid, and yet still others that consider me an a$$hole, some that do think I know a little about which I speak, and finally others the think and believe I am years ahead of them. I say fine with me, being the BEST and all knowing is an impossible set of shoes to fill, so I do the best of my abilities, and at the end of the day if I am happy and satisfied with my personal development and understanding then what the hell does it matter what others think, speaking realistically.
James, when you would like to add positive input, I will be more then happy to discuss it with you. Your post indicates something other them positive input, and I can think of a few, do you drive a very large truck?
<I'm not in love with Mallory coils either..... Third one on my car, at $100 a pop. This one seems to be alright, but years of use with Accel coils mounted just about every way you can imagine, no leaks, good performance. Mallory? Better mount that bad boy straight up and level or you will get oil all over the place. I fabbed an aluminum bracket this time that positions the coil flat and level.....we'll see.
One more coil problem for me, and it's back to Accel.>
Good input, and yes you are correct, the Mallory coil is a little finiky, and because of manufacturing got a rep for leaking. I am well aware of this fact, I use to work for Mallory Electric when I was younger, in fact I know Roger Malloy, the son personally. The coil I am getting is no longer available, but to date, that is the best coil I have ever seen. I had it on three cars and it worked most excellent dude LOL, in fact I took a jolt from it one time on my corvair, and that thing knocked the hell out of me. That coil works hands down.
Now, the Accell coils, I know little about, but I have heard some good things about them. Do you have a recommendation of model? Would be more then willing to give that a try. I have to make some calls, as I know of one other person that has been plagued with misfiring, and he has run the whole gambet of configurations and coils with little sucess, but the mallory, old never die has been the only part that has been trouble free for him. I am interested in you recommendation though, the configuration is a good fit to my car, and it it will do what I want it to then whay not.
I know one thing, I have heard some BAD things from noted builders about MSD and have experienced first hand the junk they market as the best thing since sliced bread. I called today MSD, and informed them regarding their coil and my problems with the part. Instead of trying to figure out what the heck is going on with their product, the customer service guy decided that the problems I have experienced must have created by me and my application of the product. I let him know they were DONE, and I will make sure they did not get any support, or endorcement of their product from myself. Like my aunt always says, if one cant listen, one can feel. I will say it, their coils are crap, and you are wasting your money on their product in my opinion, an guy that has replaced two parts in about 15K miles of run time.
signed pseudotechnician view point, Sniper S^$ker, with girly arms : UCC 1-207
A:
<LD28 utilizes a oil pump drive gear, FROM NISSAN, that has only the oil pump drive>
That is very interesting! Of course, a diesel does not need spark. That is a great bit of info.. But how does the oil pump of a diesel engine compare to the oil pump of a turbo engine? In terms of performance? Would a diesel pump be able to generate enough pressure?
I didn't have a Clue??!!! Until I found Blue...
Blue's Z car tips -
Post Edited (Dec 16, 3:23am)
A:
It's not the pump you want, its the drive for the pump, the part that is driven from the crank. That part doesnt have the long part of the shaft to drive a distributor. get it now?
signed pseudotechnician view point, Sniper S^$ker, with girly arms : UCC 1-207
A:
Is the drive for the pump located in the pump or is it attached to the crank? Is it somethnig that can be removed and slotted into a turbo pump?
I didn't have a Clue??!!! Until I found Blue...
Blue's Z car tips -
A:
ok let me try to make it clear for you. Picture the standard oil pump/distributor drive. Now cut off the part of the shaft that goes to the distributor, but after the locator in the cover. The LD drive, comes made for this application from NISSAN, because the Diesel doesn't require a distributor. No custom mods at all, strait from NISSAN.
signed pseudotechnician view point, Sniper S^$ker, with girly arms : UCC 1-207
A:
to bad man i was so pumped to see the numbers !! ooh well there should be a new GS or TUV proofed mark.. JEFFP tested... as you seem to be good in taking it to the limit!
You can sleep in your car, but cant drive in your house
if you are fully in control, you are not driving fast enough!
79 ZXR 46K!
81 ZXT EURO 2+2
83 ZXT
All fine Fastback winnabego's
A:
When I saw how long your response was I started to grab a cup of coffee. However, I just scrolled through to find where it said, "James." Your engineer friend is not correct regarding the Tech III. I think your point of the system being obsolete is false.
There are better systems out there such as the Motec that cost much more than the Tech III, but I am speaking in terms of bang for the buck. As far as a system being developed by someone at Harvard....whoa that really makes the difference! You should have said MIT because I would have sold my Tech III and purchased that one.
I would say the proof is in the pudding. You got stranded because you are using a distributor. Whether or not you have a flux capacitor under your seat and it is not being used makes little difference.
As far as my input being positive, why are you switching to a new system that is not JWT? Well, because my criticism is correct. I have tried to provide you with constructive advice based on my limited experience and you have yet to respond. For example, I posted several weeks back about your intake manifold and you had nothing to say.
I would love to see you reach your desired goal, but after 3 years of hearing about a 600hp motor you have nothing to show in terms of substantiating that claim. Good Luck to you and I will continue to provide you with my pithy comments!
--------------------
www.SpeedShopThagard.com
Garrett Turbo Dealer
3.1L TwinTurbo L28
10.62@134.1
Post Edited (Dec 16, 7:57am)
A:
Ok, I called my buddy who actually designed the Tech III to get the facts.
Tech III uses none of the processor technology from the Tech I or II.
It has 5 processors that run the computer.
1x HC11 "Motorolla" processor that controls the fuel and is 16MHz.
2x "Microchip" processors used for ignition control that are 33MHz
2x Misc Processors for things like controlling injector current
--------------------
www.SpeedShopThagard.com
Garrett Turbo Dealer
3.1L TwinTurbo L28
10.62@134.1
Post Edited (Dec 16, 9:59am)
A:
Thanks for the explanation Jeff.
I didn't have a Clue??!!! Until I found Blue...
Blue's Z car tips -
A:
The coils I used were the Accel Super Coil.....the big clunky yellow one. I've used it on Chevy and Ford, single and dual point distributers.
http://www.accel-ignition.com/ProductDetails.aspx?brandId=3&productID=3219081&majID=525&minID=5283&selection=0&minselection=11
"supercoil
ACCEL Super Coil is engineered for faster rise time and longer spark duration. Produces higher spark energy for increased performance. Features oversized case w/integral cooling fins. Extra tall tower eliminates "flash over". Hardware included for installation.
Model Number: 140001"
I was pretty interested in reading your experience with MSD coils. I was planning to use a pure MSD ignition system in my drag car project when I get back to it. Sounds like I need to rethink that. Thanks for the info.
Ken
'82ZX n/a 2+2
'02 Sportster XL1200C
Post Edited (Dec 16, 8:14am)
A:
Wouldn't the coil problem create the distributor problem?
A:
With regards to the LD28 oil pump "DRIVE" wouldnt it be a hell of a lot easier just leaving the stock spindle in - does it really matter that it will be turning? Since you can cap it off anyway and not have to look at it turn.
I didn't have a Clue??!!! Until I found Blue...
Blue's Z car tips -
A:
I've had good luck with the MSD 6AL and I think a blaster II coil. So far knock on wood they have given me not a single problem in almost 80,xxx miles.
I saw on a show this weekend were they went to a Mallory plant, they listed off that they make Accel, Jacobs, Mallory but did not mention MSD. For some reason I thought Mallory made MSD and Accel was separate?
Sorry to hear about the problems Jeff, always interesting to read.
Matt
A:
What do you use to support the distributor end of the shaft if there is not a distributor there?
So at 3500rpms (7000engine rpms) the long end of the shaft with a half-key cut end is wobbling to-and-fro because of the inherent imbalance of the part itself?
NO THANKS!
I'd cut it off, or use an LD Drive.
BTW, the LD Drive should be a bit more stout, because the LD uses more oil pressure. Those "High Performance Racing Oil Pressure Springs" come out of an LD engine---part number is the same. Stock part for a diesel Oil System is a Hi-Po part for the Gas engine.
Hopefully the LD Drive gear is suitably strengthened to withstand higher rpm usage and the loads the oil pump puts on it. If not, we'll pin it!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Hey Jeff, if you want to try the coil Ken is talking about, let me know, there is one in my 73 240Z(T)---it's been in there for a while, but I have no idea where you would put it on your car! It's humongous, and when I repipe the Intercooler on that car, it will have to be relocated...
But if you want to bring it down to the dyno to test with, it's yours!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Hey! I had an Accel Super Coil on both my '80 280zx and my '82 280zx.
Worked fine and I still have it in a box somewhere... hmmm...