General Chat
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Saw this the other day. Thought it was interesting.
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im actually going to be looking into converting cars locally to run on ethenol. considering it burns cleaner and you get more power, and it only costs abotu a buck and a half per gallon (in 55 gallon drums) its getting more and more popular. and the current engines can easily run on it. did you knwo that when the internal combustionengine was invented that it ran on acohol? gasoline hadnt been "invented" yet. and during a fuel shortage sometime around WW2 the big oil companies actually produced it to power the cars. if we all switched to ethenol (mind you they already use it in south america) our cars would burn cleaner and cooler, wed be using a re-newable resource to power them, and the oil we use to lubricate them can be recycled. its a good idea all the way around. next year around march ro so im going to be buying a few cars to convert - if all goes well im going to wrap them (big ass sticker that covers the whole car) and open a buisness converting cars and selling fuel. i might not make any money, but as long as i dont lose much ill be ok, @ least itll be getting the word out - and proveing that its possible.
btw where did you see that truck?
1991 Pearl White TT A/T - e-mail removed from profile due to spam.
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Nashville, TN. Theres a Citgo Station downtown that offers E85 and biodiesel
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i live in western nebraska and we have a few stations offering ethenol.
i tryed in my 94 f150 truck with a 351m engine. honestly my truck ran like crap thru the whole tankful and my gas mileage dropped in almost half. i was hugely disapointed. Can you tell of hand how much it might cost (stricltly ballpark) to convert a 1994 f150 w/ 351m and auto trans, 4wd so that it can run effciently on ethanol??
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1980 280ZX coupe
2001 maxima
1994 F150 4x4 van works custom truck
170000 and never needed mech repairs
1996 ford explorer -they cant all be good
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Are you aware that the fertililzer used to grow the corn to produce ethanol is derived from petroleum?
How much arable land is left unused in the world that we can grow enough corn to support a large enough supply of ethanol to replace fossil fuels?
These are important questions to ask yourself if you happen to be an advocate of ethanol.
Since petroleum and arable land are both consumed in the process, you might as well spend a dollar a gallon to turn Pepsi into Coke.
'74 260z---NA L28 MSnS-E w/ Innovate Wideband
Already sparking, soon to be squirting.
Cogito, ergo dolorum.
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E85 will only run in engines that can support it, they will say in the owner's manual and usually are pickup trucks or vans. Don't go putting it in your regular engine!
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aendei...
look up "switchgrass" and "Ethanol". while corn porduced ethanol only produces about 20% more power than it takes to make (takes 4 gallons to make 5, only 1 net gallon out of every 5) switchgrass ethanol has about a 400% net return. meaning that it takes about 1 gallons worth of energy to make 5 gallons of ethanol.
plus, switch grass is a weed, so there is no need to cultivate it, nor grow it in rows. MUCH less farm machinery is involved in farming it, making it more effecient. looks like it could be a real winner.
McAdam
1980 280zx with a mildly ported N47 maxima head, 60mm TB, -C- stamp 256 degree camshaft, and a 2.5inch mandrel bent exhaust. yeah, its quick, and yeah, its a 2+2. NOW with MSandS_E power!
A:
Your car would use twice as much ethanol as it would gas therefore the savings would be nil. Ethanol does not mix with oil and if you have any dilution in the oil whatsoever, there would be problems with coagulated oil cloging oiling systems etc.
"Been there, done that" with a race car. It's not a good idea if you plan to get any longivity from an engine.
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to turn Coke into pepsi
Have you shared the left lane today?
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"considering...you get more power"
ah, what chart are you reading that from? ethanol contains about half the energy of gasoline per gallon.
79 280ZX -The best selling sports car of all time
Post Edited (Dec 9, 5:38am)
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However, in order to grow even switchgrass in large quantities, one must use up arable land. There is already barely enough arable land left in the world to feed our population, let alone produce the fuel necessary to power our cars.
I think it would be a wonderful idea if everyone were to stop having kids, but until that joyous day, it's a dud.
'74 260z---NA L28 MSnS-E w/ Innovate Wideband
Already sparking, soon to be squirting.
Cogito, ergo dolorum.
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the government subsidizes ethanol to the tune of 50 cents a gallon. That's the only reason it's cheaper right now. Plus, you get less power by using it.
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since it gets half the mileage.... it's a loose-loose.
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Ethanol isn't really that great...
It doesn't provide as much power as gasoline, doesn't get the same mileage either. If the government really cares about helping out and conserving fuel, they'll remove ethanol or MTBE from all fuels and add acetone instead. Acetone will improve mileage and performance, and will clean the engine out at the same time.
Plus i can see some idiot kids taking shots off the gas pump to get drunk when they fill up their ethanol powered cars..
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1985 300ZX n/a
Post Edited (Dec 9, 11:50am)
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"Acetone will improve mileage and performance"
nope.
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>they'll remove ethanol or MTBE from all fuels and add acetone instead
The acetone thing isn't really true, and it eats the rubber seals in the fuel system, and will mess your gas if you put too much in, plus it's horrible for humans. Bad idea. If you really want power, hydrogen is good, since it has great burn properties and the venturi effect from injecting it cools the cylinders. But it doesn't really occur naturally and wastes energy to produce.
There isn't a good solution until we all get Mr. Fusions in our trunks.
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>meaning that it takes about 1 gallons worth of energy to make 5 gallons of ethanol
What does this mean exactly? Where does one get a gallon of energy from? I'm guessing you mean that it takes the consumption of one gallon of ethanol to produce five gallons of ethanol from some other source fuel? If so, is that really very good? How much gasoline is burned producing gasoline?
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Aeindei wrote:
However, in order to grow even switchgrass in large quantities, one must use up arable land. There is already barely enough arable land left in the world to feed our population, let alone produce the fuel necessary to power our cars.
I think it would be a wonderful idea if everyone were to stop having kids, but until that joyous day, it's a dud.
that's ridiculous and ignorant. The government pays our farmers to produce LESS food than what they are capable of producing, if the farmers of the USA produced all the food they could it would flood the world market and crash the price of food so low that all farmers would go out of business. What hole are you living in to think that our earth is not capable of sustaining 4 times our current population?
1982 280zx FI 2+2, t-top, flowmaster exhaust, tuned header, cold air intake, that will never be fast enough...
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>The acetone thing isn't really true, and it eats the rubber seals in the fuel
>system, and will mess your gas if you put too much in, plus it's horrible for
>humans. Bad idea. If you really want power, hydrogen is good, since it
>has great burn properties and the venturi effect from injecting it cools the
>cylinders. But it doesn't really occur naturally and wastes energy to >produce.
>
>There isn't a good solution until we all get Mr. Fusions in our trunks.
>
z32d00d:
I've been putting acetone in my gas tank for 5 months now, done some 9,700 miles of driving with it. Before I got 18-22MPG, now i get 26-28. Overall, I've gotten an extra 120+ miles per tank on average. The engine runs smoother with it as well, and it definitely doesn't hurt fuel system components. I've had a few rubber fuel hoses, fuel pump parts, a fuel injector and some seals sitting in a gallon of 100% pure acetone for about 5.5 months now with no visible signs of deterioration.
I also made a 12 page long report on acetone as a fuel additive for my Organic Chemistry class this semester, using my documentation (miles logs, gasoline compositions at various stations in my area, and my results from use) from the past 5 months to back a lot of it up. I'd be happy to let you read it, email me if you're interested.
I will agree with you though on the hydrogen statements. I believe hydrogen is the way of the future, and honestly I don't know why it hasn't been taken seriously by our government. The use of hydrogen as a fuel has almost no drawbacks at all. The only real one being the possibility of explosion, and good engineering should take care of that..
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1985 300ZX n/a
Post Edited (Dec 9, 11:33pm)
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"What hole are you living in to think that our earth is not capable of sustaining 4 times our current population?"
**Yeah, but for how long?!?!?!**
I appreciate your arguments, but to assume I dwell in squallor because I disagree with you is a bit much, really.
I assume that when you say it will flood the world market, you mean that it will exceed the capacity of nations who have money to import goods to buy.
The market flooding doesn't have that much to do with whether or not the entire population is being fed, since much of the world's population is too poor to buy our food.
My argument didn't make any claims about the market's capacity. It made a claim about the present ability of arable land to sustain and nourish human beings.
There are plenty of folks out there that don't have food. I don't really give much of a damn about them, but it seems silly to use up farmland on ethanol production when they've nothing to eat.
'74 260z---NA L28 MSnS-E w/ Innovate Wideband
Already sparking, soon to be squirting.
Cogito, ergo dolorum.
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I don't know about the rest of the world - but in the U.S. the arable farmland is being eaten by the people - in the form of subdivisons.
Growing populations are taking not only farmland but animal habitat as well.
The bottom line is there are just too many people.
No I'm not volunteering to help lessen the population figures yet by one:
I'm not selfesh to let go yet and I still have to get the Z's worked on.
I do want to stick around a while longer to see what new doomsday scenarios are concocted. My generation lived through "Duck & Cover" and Dr. Strangelove so everything else is a bit of an anticlimax.
Ed and Jeanne's
ZXelda 1981 280 ZXT: ZXena 1990 300 ZX
1941 Buick Special Sedanette (Betty)
1956 Dodge Royal (Dorothy)
1971 Buick Riviera (Rita)
1975 Ford F-150 Stepside (Fiona)
1992 Firebird (Frieda)
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"I also made a 12 page long report on acetone as a fuel additive for my Organic Chemistry class this semester"
That sounds wonderful. I assume that you failed the class after that report? What is the Scientific reason for a mileage increase based on Organic Chemical equations? Probably your car is simply out of tune OR you drive differently when the additive is poured in.
I'm waiting for your Scientific Organic Oxidation reactions to show the increase in heat content (and I'll wait forever on that one) that shows that you get 30% more ENERGY from a gas/acetone mixture.
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ROFL.. hey phxZ31, did this 12 page report have anything to do with that that you made that ran for 4 months on water?
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you do get worse gas mileage with ethanol, but only 20% worse. not half. and that is only because you have to run richer when you use it. hydrogen is the worse flop on earth, do you knwo that right now it take smore energy to make hydrogen than it produces. unless they use nuclear power (wich is bad becuase of the waste) hydrogen is not going to be the next fuel, well maybe it will since it can be controlled by a large corp and the price can be played with becuase of that. ethenol burns nearly 90% cleaner than gasoline, they did a test on a taxicab in NY - they removed all of the pollution controls on a taxi and used it for awhile, then they took it into smog and it passed 90% cleaner than a gasoline engine with the smog controlles atatched and working. i belive it would be easily possible to sustain our population with the land we have, the waste created during the processing of ethenol is used as feed for our livestock (and our livestock feeds us) do you realise we can make ethenol from pretty much anything? if we were too start taking it seriously we would even creat better ways to create it from cellulose material (trees n stuff methanol), we could make it from our own waste. it would be like the ultimate in recycling.
to convert newere cars over ive heard all you have to do is change the fuel filter and increase your jet size by 20%. mind you im still looking into it, and i havent actually done it yet. i think i stated that above. hydrogen is a big fat no (for now).
1991 Pearl White TT A/T - e-mail removed from profile due to spam.
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"That sounds wonderful. I assume that you failed the class after that report? What is the Scientific reason for a mileage increase based on Organic Chemical equations? Probably your car is simply out of tune OR you drive differently when the additive is poured in.
I'm waiting for your Scientific Organic Oxidation reactions to show the increase in heat content (and I'll wait forever on that one) that shows that you get 30% more ENERGY from a gas/acetone mixture."
Don't criticize me before you read it. Email me if you want a copy.
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1985 300ZX n/a
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>"I've been putting acetone in my gas tank for 5 months now, done some
> 9,700 miles of driving with it. Before I got 18-22MPG, now i get 26-28.
The math doesn't add up. That is far too much energy density to be true, even if acetone were a wonderful additive.
>I've had a few rubber fuel hoses, fuel pump parts, a fuel injector and
> some seals sitting in a gallon of 100% pure acetone for about 5.5
> months now with no visible signs of deterioration."
You do know that acetone is an industrial solvent, used to expand and soften rubber? (in addition to a hundred other things)
A:
Yes, I know acetone is a power solvent. Yes I know it will eat up certain rubbers/plastics/synthetic polymers instantly. You are also aware that gasoline is a strong solvent though, right?
I did noticed that the rubber hose that has been soaking for months in acetone has swelled ever so slightly, but thats in pure acetone. I put 0.0023% mixture into my gasoline. Any much more than that and I lose mileage instead of gain. It adds up to about 2.7 fl. oz per 10 gallons.
It works by interrupting the surface tension of gasoline, helps prevent any droplets from forming as it sprays out of the injectors ensuring a more properly atomized spray. Obviously fuel will burn much slower causing waste when the fuel doesn't atomize properly.
Only a very little bit of acetone is needed otherwise it starts interfering with proper combustion, resulting in lower mileage that without acetone at all.
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1985 300ZX n/a
Post Edited (Dec 10, 1:50pm)
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It's always worth investing some time to find an option for fossil fuels. But it often goes down to getting this recource produced at quantities to support what fossil fuels do. Can you imagine what it would take to make Billions upon Billions of gallons of anything grown on land on a Daily basis? I think pumping it from under the ground is the best bet until we harness the Sun's energy more efficiently.
On the population/fertile land issue... Africa has 25% of the fertile potential farmland on the earth [not yet used]. Yet figures state anywhere from 40-75% are starving. The issue isn't farm land, it's the societies and govt control that cause world hunger, THAT I assure you. There is more than enough farm land coupled with farm technology to feed the earth for at least a few generations, even at the human races projected growth rates.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
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Yes, like I said, there's barely enough.
I never said the amount of arable land was currently inadequate.
I'm not averse to alternate means of producing energy, but I won't dwell on a pipe dream, either.
You make a good point about solar. Or was it fusion? Either way is a good suggestion.
'74 260z---NA L28 MSnS-E w/ Innovate Wideband
Already sparking, soon to be squirting.
Cogito, ergo dolorum.
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"Don't criticize me before you read it. Email me if you want a copy."
if simply adding sone acetone was as magical as you say, then it would have already been done. your assumption for slower burning may be true, but no more effective in the real world than switching to a higher octane gasoline.
you are damn right that the scientific community has a right, no, an obligation to criticise non-scientific work. that is the way science works, you cannot do one little test and then make sweeping conclusions. only conclusion from your test is that your car has problems running well before testing even started.
learn this now and you won't be laughed at by your peers in the future. refuse to learn it and start selling magnets for the fuel line with the same claim.
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"if simply adding sone acetone was as magical as you say, then it would have already been done. your assumption for slower burning may be true, but no more effective in the real world than switching to a higher octane gasoline."
The higher the octane a fuel is, the slower it burns. Octane rating is a measure of combustion retardation. Higher octane fuel is only needed in high-compression or high boost forced induction engines because those engines run at much higher temperatures internally. If you put 87 octane in a high boost setup, you'd get knocking (because the heat from the cylinder wall ignites the fuel before the plug fires). You put 92 octane in, and it withstands the heat and requires more energy to ignite... thus it will remain unburnt until the plug fires, but once it does ignite it will also take longer to burn completely (although we're talking fractions of milliseconds here).
The effect on fuel that acetone provides has absolutely nothing to do with octane, period. Acetones benefits come from certain physical properties of the actual acetone molecules which breaks up the surface tension of gasoline preventing droplets from forming. As you all should know, gasoline must be atomized to burn effectively. If a droplets form, the gasoline will not be entirely burned causing loss of power, and waste of fuel.
"you are damn right that the scientific community has a right, no, an obligation to criticise non-scientific work. that is the way science works, you cannot do one little test and then make sweeping conclusions. only conclusion from your test is that your car has problems running well before testing even started."
You haven't read my report or seen my car. You'd have no basis for this comment. Seems to me you're the only one making conclusions with no evidence.
It doesn't matter anyway. You guys can choose not to use acetone in your gastank, I don't really care... When I first heard about it, it sounded promising. After some research the chemistry made a lot of sense, I tested it, and it appears to work very well for me. Thats the only point I was trying to make and I think I've made it now.
I'm gonna keep using it, and if my car blows up I'll let everybody know and say I'm the idiot.
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1985 300ZX n/a
Post Edited (Dec 11, 11:24am)
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"acetone molecules which breaks up the surface tension of gasoline preventing droplets from forming"
lol. what an ass. there IS NO SURFACE TENSION IN A VAPOR. i assume you failed that o-chem class if you spout such nonsense. fix your damn car and you will get that mileage anyway. sheeeesh!
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"lol. what an ass. there IS NO SURFACE TENSION IN A VAPOR. i assume you failed that o-chem class if you spout such nonsense. fix your damn car and you will get that mileage anyway. sheeeesh!"
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Gasoline is a liquid, the only way to make it vapor is to break the surface tension of the liquid. You need to know what you're talking about before you call somebody an ass.
Damn, sometimes the bashing on this forum is just out of control. If you don't think acetone will work thats fine don't use it.
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1985 300ZX n/a
Post Edited (Dec 11, 9:31pm)
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no, you said you had scientific proof that it works. that's a hell of a lot different than "well if you don't think it will work, then don't".
just because you cut the gasoline with a solvent does not mean that it actually makes for improvement in a mechanical system. If the gasoline vaporizes too easily the mixture can be too lean to burn properly or cause pre-ignition. properly designed and tuned engines will actually suffer if you change the fuel characteristics from what the engines were designed to use.
that is why i said that there was something basically wrong with your car before you started. if you were getting below normal mileage on regular gasoline at the start, that means that your cars engine had mixture issues already. if nothing else, all you can logically conclude is that adding solvent cleaned your fuel injectors.
i would love for what you say to be true, but using just one chemical parameter and then mixing it in with one bad running engine does not mean that acetone "helped" any more than a bottle of STP injector cleaner(that if full of solvents and makes the same claim that you do).
now if you have scientific theory and proof that acetone additive in a perfectly running modern engine will increase mileage, i'd love to see it. otherwise, it's not a bash, i'm just being reasonable.
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"no, you said you had scientific proof that it works. that's a hell of a lot different than "well if you don't think it will work, then don't"."
I offered to let anybody read my report on it which deals with a good deal of chemistry and scientific information. It also contains almost 10,000 miles of documented use of acetone in my own cars. Instead, without even reading a word of it, people decided that bashing and stupid comments like "you must have failed o-chem then" was more appropriate.
"now if you have scientific theory and proof that acetone additive in a perfectly running modern engine will increase mileage, i'd love to see it. otherwise, it's not a bash, i'm just being reasonable."
email me if you want to read up on it. theres plenty of scientific data available. I have a few dozen references and my own write up if you are in fact interested.
and my car has no problems, neither before or after using acetone. I take very good care of my vehicles.
I want to make it clear that I really enjoy this forum and I wasn't trying to start some sort of stupid arguement over this. Acetone works very well, but if you choose not to use it I have no problem with that at all. Theres no need to knock me down because I tried it and found it to be beneficial.
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1985 300ZX n/a
Post Edited (Dec 21, 11:18am)
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Please send me one (you have mail).
I have read hundreds of trials and people also report reduced mileage many times. I am a degreed Chemist and would like to see the paper.
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i sent a request too. if your car had no problems, then why was it getting less mpg than others get? not knocking down so much as demanding a fair evaluation.
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"It also contains almost 10,000 of documented use of acetone in my own cars"
"I've been putting acetone in my gas tank for 5 months now"
wow, that's like over 60 tests a day.
i can't wait any longer to see this exhaustive research paper.
it should be revealing.
79 280ZX -The best selling sports car of all time
Post Edited (Dec 12, 9:49am)
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maybe mail is slow today?
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still no report sent to me...
i am beginning to wonder if he really did 10,000 test on his car in 5 months. it's like the guys that boast about putting magnets on the fuel line and then are no where to be found when they have to put up or shut up.
79 280ZX -The best selling sports car of all time
Post Edited (Dec 13, 7:22am)