General Chat
Q:
So I was listening to the radio yesterday (NPR) and apparently General Motors is a sinking ship at the moment.
Their sales skyrocketed when they started the GM Employee Discount for everyone campaign, but apparently they sold so many cars at so little profit that it hurt them more than it helped.
The major reason for their downfall apparently is their retirement packages and healthcare costs. Apparently they have such a good retiree package and SO MANY retired employees that they are having trouble becasue of all the money they are paying out in healthcare/pentions/insurance etc.
In fact, they have such a problem that they are now going to lay off a SIGNIFICANT portion of their current workforce so they can continue to support their old rich retired executives!! I guess all the auto industry work unions are furious that they would sacrafice their current employees to support the ones that don't even work there anymore.
All in all, the reports i heard on the radio yesterday sound pretty damning for GM. I'm pretty surprised actually. GM has so many makes: GMC, Pontiac, Chevy, Cadillac. I see soooo many of those freakin Escalades around here that I can't believe they could be in financial danger.
Anybody else here about this at all?
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1985 300ZX n/a
A:
This is what GM deserves after they turned into a pensions and health care provider.
They should have stuck with building cars.
1971 240Z
"Fear is exciting for me." -Ayrton Senna
A:
I am afraid you will see a lot more of the same from other companies because retirement plans have been under-funded to the tune of Billions of dollars. The money was paid to CEO's instead of being invested into retirement accounts as it should have been. Not that long ago the avarage CEO made approx. 20 times the wages of the workers, now it is 400 times.
"YES I will finish what I sta"
.
1977 280Z blue 2+2,
1973 240z
1977 280Z coupe in restoration progress
A:
i can only assume that npr will follow gm to the dumpseter if they continue to broadcast old news.
A:
GM didn't do anything that wasn't common place at the time...... This "screw your employees" frame of mind didn't start until later. Now it's only the top executives that get paid off for not working.
Delphi is in major trouble because of GMs problems. They will be laying off 2/3 of their workforce unless the Unions cut the workers pay from $27 to $9. Of course the new CEO of Delphi won't be giving back any of the 3+ mil he got when he signed on a year or so ago.
Should it pay $27 an hour to assemble an alternator? ....probably not. At the same time, should you get 3 mil just for taking a job? ....probably not.
It's the pot calling the kettle black. Executives calling for reduction in pay so 'they' can save the company, but then line their own pockets with bonus money. Unions squeezing every cent they can until it's the company that hurts. Who's killing the company? Sounds like both sides are doing a bang up job.
Ok, pencil to paper:
$27/hr = $56,160 a year
now divide 3 mil by that = 53.4
One sign on bonus to one person is equal to 53 workers salary for a year. Only an executive has the skewed logic that can see that as 'necessary'.
Ken
'82ZX n/a 2+2
'02 Sportster XL1200C
A:
Do you think they will come out of it??
1990 RS Camao (Ya i know im getting a Z but i still love my Camaro!)
2002 Z28 LS1 T56 yes its fast no you cant drive it!
A:
i think i need to go to college for a worthless degree and get one of these CEO jobs cause they dont seem to do anything but get paid.
___________________________________________________________
Erik Coleman
Orange '76 280Z 2+2
Red '85 300ZX Turbo
Black '86 300ZX NA
A:
Yes, they will come out of it, when they start building everything in China..............the new American motto= F the working class.
"YES I will finish what I sta"
.
1977 280Z blue 2+2,
1973 240z
1977 280Z coupe in restoration progress
A:
I am pretty sure that, because GM is one of the last American oligapolies (along with Ford and Chrysler), the federal government will bail them out. Nixon bailed Chrysler out of bankruptcy in the 70s'.
If the GM bankruptcy happened during Bush's watch, no doubt Bush will bail them out as well.
I hope GM will re-tool their vehicles so they can turn them around. I wonder the GM boardroom is quietly murmuring, "Carlos Ghosn?"
Kelbo
1978 280z (mostly stock)
A:
Even if I was a loyal GM customer before, I wouldn't be now. What kind of company lays off that many employees right before Xmas? They could have waited until after the holidays. F GM. I hope they go belly up and the executives can choke on their own vomit.
God must love stupid people, he made SOOOOO many of them!
A:
You can't stop those japanese'.
89'300zx-Carputer,Black,17's,digital,5spd,My Baby:D
90' TTZ!-UR Pully,seri2 PTU, R34 Brakes,HKS dual's,JW Intake&POP,PRofec B Spec2,Tokyo Rad,etc.
92' Civic- B16,Turbo,StandAlone FS,Programed,All the go!
95' Mitsu Turbo AWD,T3/4 CONV.**12 SEC CAR!!
A:
mike240...do you have any idea what will happen to america if our biggest corporation goes under? I hate GM as well but for the sake of our nation they NEED to restructure and survive.
88 300ZX Turbo Shiro Special (SS): K&N filter, HKS Exhaust.
God created Turbo lag so V8's could stand a chance.
A:
With GM in trouble and the oil industries starting to go into investigation, there is the potential for a huge economic crisis if things arent handled properly.
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1985 300ZX n/a
A:
Unions.....
Other countries are laughing at us. First the Airline companies, now the Autos.
Why are you chopping off the hand that feeds you?
$27 an hour!!! I think the Supermarket Employee Unions where fighting for something similar too for their store employees shelving food.
This country is getting way out of hand. My old professor was right. In the future, nothing will be made in America. The US will be a "Service" country (ex. banking, consultants, lawyers, doctors).
Manufacturing country no more.
********************
1975 280Z (Stock)
303 Emerald Green
A:
Well if GM goes belly up Toyota will be the biggest auto maker.
1990 RS Camao (Ya i know im getting a Z but i still love my Camaro!)
2002 Z28 LS1 T56 yes its fast no you cant drive it!
A:
I don't think General Motors will go out of business but they'll have to make cuts somewhere. It appears that they have too many divisions given their market share of the total new car sales pie. They currently have six divisions: Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Hummer, and Saturn although Saturn has more independence and autonomy than the other GM divisions.
A few years ago, Chrysler ditched their Eagle and Plymouth divisions and GM ditched their Olds division but they might have to cut even more. The GMC name is a vaguely defined name plate making Chevy trucks, vans, and SUV's. Hummer, as big and expensive as they are, would fit in real well with the Cadillac division. Since Chevrolet already has some sporty cars, such as the Corvette, it could easlily absorb Pontiac. Pontiac, known as the sporty car division basically overlaps and duplicates Chevrolet division vehicles.
A:
Hey, didn't Delphi have a big financial SCAM of its own a couple years ago? Own, like in ownership. Meanwhile in the L.A. Times, the Chinese are making these GM knock-offs called, "Sherry" and now " 2nd wifes, mistresses, are BACK IN SEASON G.I. Joe. NK
Norman Krell
A:
why couldnt it be ford? (no offence)
----------------------------------------------------
1981 n/a 280zx
1952 m38a1 jeep willy's
1971 fairlady 240z
95 300zx N/A
72 240z
A:
GMC needs to:
- build tiny, cool looking, fuel efficient 1 seater commuter cars for less than $5k
- build fuel efficient Turbo diesel motors and put them in newly engineered and minimalistic though functional cool looking, sedans, wagons and small pick-ups
- build tiny, cool looking, electric 1 seater commuter cars for less than $5k
- develop interchangable parts for all their cars (seats, motors, transmissions, instrument pods, seat belts, differentials, wheels etc. Cars should be as "plug and play" as computers are. Look at how we enjoy swapping differentials, turbo motors, transmissions, etc.
Presently they have the brains and the resources to do the above... they just need to get in gear as the 1/2 price Chinese cars are now invading.
From your friendly neighbourhood man from the future
Injector Cleaning Service
THE FREE ONLINE INDEPENDENT Z STORE
Email me to add your product
A:
Ford stock is in the same boat!
77 280Z with SBC, 700R4, Vette C4 IRS W/11.5 rear disk, Centerlines 16x9.5 W/BF G 245x45ZR Comp T/A Rear and 15x7 Ft W/BF Goodrich Euro 225x15 on ft. Soon to have Coleman 12.2x1.25, x-drilled, zinc plated, Rotors W/Billet Outlaw 4000. Z U V8ter
A:
I have a 2005 Chevrolet Equinox (my wife's daily driver) and let me tell you, it's a piece of crap. After a year, everything rattles inside of it, and I have had issues with the ignition switch and the rear seats. I had to FIGHT the service bastards at the dealer in order to get things fixed, and they wanted to charge for it!!! It's a 2005 model!!!!
I know, roads in Mexico aren't exactly smooth (specially in Nuevo Laredo), but I also have a 2003 Jeep Liberty (my daily driver), and there's a huge difference. After almost 3 years of agresive driving habits and terrible roads there are no strange noises, it still feels like new, and I have had only one warranty issue with it (driver's seat recliner was not working), which was quickly taken care of (for free) by the service personnel at the dealership.
I'm not surpresed at all when I see that GM needs to lower their prices in order to sell. Look at Toyota (and other Japanese carmakers), no employee discounts, and they're still selling a lot of cars. Poeple buys them because they're quality cars.
12/70 240Z, L28ET, 10 PSI, 5 sp, R200 3.54, A/C... "Better, stronger, faster..."
A:
mike240...do you have any idea what will happen to america if our biggest corporation goes under? I hate GM as well but for the sake of our nation they NEED to restructure and survive.
Ok sportdriver, I will agree to an extent, but GM (and Ford too) needs to start building better vehicles. I couldn't have offered a better example of my statment than what Mex-Z-Can just wrote about his equinox. Build better cars. If 20+ years of Toyota, Nissan and Honda making far more reliable cars than them isn't incentive for them, I don't know what is.
And outsourcing their facilities and personnel to other countries is just going to make it worse (in the sense that I definitely wouldn't want to buy an p.o.s. 'American' car that is made in another country added to the fact that the Americans that used to build those cars are now jobless).
God must love stupid people, he made SOOOOO many of them!
A:
Don't blame the automakers for this crisis, blame the real crooks..... the auto workers unions. They are the ones that threatened, and delivered worker strikes if their king's ransom (higher wages, better benefits) wasn't paid. It IS rediculous that the common employees make $25-$30 an hour with plenty of overtime available because of the union mandated inefficiency. The workers on the factory floors are actually bored most of the time they are working because of limitations not allowing them to turn a wrench, pick up a broom, help out anyone with a different job classification, or fix any minor problem without consulting an expert. The unions also get their share (monthly dues), and go to bat the job of some worthless worker who desparately needs to be fired. My Dad worked for 41 years in the tire industry, and he says other than good wages, and benefits, the union never did anything for him personally. He can, however, tell story after story about deadbeat drunks, and habitual attendance problem workers that got their jobs "saved" by the union reps on more than one occasion.
Black, bumperless, 78 Z with MSA superturbo system, K/N cone filter, ported intake, and exhaust manifolds.....15.9 @87 mph.
A:
The domestic auto industry does need to trim the fat in the management as well as dump the unions. Neither of which will be easy tasks. Given the rate of sales by Toyota and other imports, GM won't be #1 much longer no matter what they do.
Ford is also in deep trouble. Proposed layoffs there too. This may be old news to some, but the problem hasn't gone away either...
Somebody needs to look at Chrysler to see why the seem to be thriving in the American market.
1990 2+2 N/A
SHIFT_style
A:
Hey, no unions, no lawsuits, no workers comp, no OSHA, to worry about over in China or India.
Plus one can pay the Chinese and Indians minimum wage (and that's consider A LOT on money) over there. Furthermore, the employees will worship and respect the company. No bitchin' over there.
Unions... I just don't get them. If we want to keep jobs in America, we need to get rid of unions. People with university degree don't even get $25 - $30 an hour...and for the assembly line people to demand more than that rate is just ridiculous.
Companies should say to the Union employees, "Go ahead with your strikes. Take our company down. Now you're unemployed. Go cry to your Union Reps about another job. Good Bye and Happy Thanksgiving."
********************
1975 280Z (Stock)
303 Emerald Green
Post Edited (Nov 22, 3:01pm)
A:
I think Blue touched on an important point about making more of the parts interchangeable amoung model lines. The big three used to offer several different V-8s, an inline 6, and a couple of 4 cylinder motors in their entire model line. Now, there are dozens of different variations of the same motors and transmission for similar models. Every model has it's own unique interior, with several optional "looks", and the suspension components only fit on one model, and may vary with trim levels.
GM going out of business is just not an option for this country. It goes well beyond the autoworkers who assemble the cars at the well known plants. Think of all the individual parts in the motor, transmission, suspension, and interior. Not too many parts are made by the same little rubber, plastic, or steel stamping factories for good reason, a work stoppage by one little plant can't bring the large assembly line down. Most parts on the car, are manufactured by more than one plant so if there is a problem with one factory, the other can pick up the slack for a while.
Black, bumperless, 78 Z with MSA superturbo system, K/N cone filter, ported intake, and exhaust manifolds.....15.9 @87 mph.
A:
Ya know you guys bashing Unions should look back to the "good old days" before unions when their was NO OVERTIME PAY and NO VACTION PAY and NO BENEFITS and NO RETIREMENT and NO SAFETY REGS and NO HOPE for things to improve.
Yes, UNIONS may demand too much at times, but you guys have to realize you owe your cushy safe jobs to the union efforts of many decades ago.
It's not the Unions BUT THE DAMN POLITICIANS AND THEIR DAMN FREE TRADE POLICIES that need to SHOT for selling out the average US worker.
Later,Norm
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
if any american automaker made a decent car id buy one but thats just how i feel. and dont get me wrong every car has problems but american cars are the worst
88 300zx shiro...11k miles
88 300zx shiro...48k miles
83 280zxt full restoration...blk and gold
97 hyundai accent gt..bought new. currently 130k and still running strong
Post Edited (Nov 22, 3:48pm)
A:
I also agree that the unions brought the company to its knees. Yes Norm, unions had their purpose long ago... but now they're a burden.
Labor unions have destroyed America's work ethic.
A:
Yeah guys but what do you want people to do??
Do you want everyone working for $6 an hour with NO benefits???
You do realize that in the long run that is exactly what it will take to keep manufacturing jobs here as long as DUMB ASS CORRUPT EVIL GREEDY POLITICIANS like the Dumbocrats and RepubliCROOKS keep believing in the FAIRY TALE of FREE TRADE.
Free Trade ONLY helps the RICH!!!
Poor Americans DIE fighting wars to let the RICH Americans use their freedom to take AMERICAN jobs to great places like China and VIETNAM.
Later,Norm
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
Post Edited (Nov 22, 4:13pm)
A:
>>>>>>>>>>>. I think Norm's right , well said Norman! <<<<<<<<<<<<
Most people are very complacent until they are afected, your job may be next. ........ Free trade sucks
"YES I will finish what I sta"
.
1977 280Z blue 2+2,
1973 240z
1977 280Z coupe in restoration progress
A:
China, and Mexico love the free trade agreement, because it is making them into world economic power houses by sucking up all the American jobs that have been moved out of country. Yes Norm, the trade agreement is equally to blame as much as the unions, and the founding politicians should be shot for selling out thier votes for pac money, and campaign contributions.
The unions did play an important part in making this country great, but now, they are a sad shell of thier former selves that continue to rake in the dues, but fail to do much for the average guy that shows up every day, and doesn't do things to threaten his job......they have outlived thier usefullness.
It's a lethal combination of factors that will ultimately bring this country to it's knees and turn us into a total consumer state, rather than having any self sufficiency. I will want to have my guns loaded and waiting when that happens just to protect what's mine.
Black, bumperless, 78 Z with MSA superturbo system, K/N cone filter, ported intake, and exhaust manifolds.....15.9 @87 mph.
A:
I think that unions suck, but they are only part of this problem. When I got outta High School I (+ everyone else)at my work got paid minimum wage. The problem was not worker costs, but the product being sold was overpriced and absolute sh*t compared to any competition. The stores couldn't sell, therefore the warehousing dept gets laid off.
As an Automotive enthusiast, I respect the entire industry and sports past and present. But I am not afraid to speak out loud and say "GM has always produced sh*tty product, F**k them all, and see you all in Hell (gmc,chev,olds,pontiac...)".
A:
i have to agree with you 100%!!! i'm a member of steelworkers & I think i'm worth the $27 / hour that i recieve. especially since our boss' get even more.
A:
my heart bleeds for them.Death to the UAW!
If all were equal, none would be strong.
Ballistic,Ruler of Interstates
Stage XX+ 1993 Z32 NA
"SoulTaker"
A:
the new corvette is bad ass >:0)
73' 240z: F54 4.2L, OS Giken LY DOHC Crossflow head, 17:3comp.ratio, N33, Tripple SU's, T10 Hybrid Draw-Through TT @ 47pds, Roots&Centrifugal Type supercharger, 3-2-1 headers, Centerforce 4 clutch, 6oz flywheel, R300 differential, Super-Hicas
A:
"But I am not afraid to speak out loud and say "GM has always produced sh*tty product, F**k them all, and see you all in Hell (gmc,chev,olds,pontiac...)".
You have a right to your opinion even if it's wrong!!! LOL
GM has made and still makes some crap, but they also make and have made some BAD AZZ cars in past.
I have a 99 Grand Prix with the 3.8L and it has been an excellent car. I have 85,000 miles on that car and I also have an 88 Ford Tbird that has 174,000 miles on it and is also a great car.......aside from the steering and tranny leaks from 18 years of hard use.
Not all American cars are crap and not all Japanese cars are great.
Mitsu's are BIG PIECES of ****!!
Honda had a serious problem with trannies blowing up a few years ago. The service departments always had a car in for a rebuild with less than 60K on it.
Toyota has had some serious recalls as well with some motors blowing due to oil coking in an engine hot spot. These were on motors where the owners HAD changed the oil every 3000 miles as well.
Anyway, don't think just buying Japanese product means you are in for 100,000 trouble free miles.
Later,Norm
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
Maybe part of the problem is some of the members on these forums that refuse to buy American automobiles because they lump them all together and say they are "all crap". Right now, the Z is the only foreign car I have, and is by far the most tempermental compared to a 93 Saturn, a 96 Neon, a 78 Ford F-250, and a 95 Ford Explorer......all very good vehicles that occasionally need peroidic maintenance. I have had very good cars and very bad cars from both foreign, and domestic car makers, and don't limit myself to one or the other because of what other people say......just my own experience.
Black, bumperless, 78 Z with MSA superturbo system, K/N cone filter, ported intake, and exhaust manifolds.....15.9 @87 mph.
A:
Norm, you are my hero. The politicians have sold us out to make themselves richer. How the hell is free trade going to help the average American worker? It's going to put him out of work or put him into a lower paying service job. And that pension he had? Oh, that's gone too. Congress passed a law that your pension can be bought out for pennies on the dollar and you're screwed there too. Greed is the center of all evil here and it is what is destroying this country.
BTW, on the news I have seen other countries citizens protesting the free trade summits. The news portrays these people as crazy when in reality they understand what free trade will do to them. American people are so stupid they don't get it.
Now Z-less
89 Mazda MX-6 GT Turbo 5 speed
88 Mazda MX-6 GT Turbo Automatic
05 Dodge Ram 3500 Cummins 4x4
Post Edited (Nov 22, 8:12pm)
A:
One more thing, when everyone has realized how corrupt the government is and how screwed up the world has become they will want to fight. But I'm sure by then the government will have already disarmed all the people and there will be no revolution. Australia and England have already banned guns and I doubt the US is not too far off from doing the same if politicians get their way.
Now Z-less
89 Mazda MX-6 GT Turbo 5 speed
88 Mazda MX-6 GT Turbo Automatic
05 Dodge Ram 3500 Cummins 4x4
A:
Yeah I think the only thing our founding fathers lacked vision on was the power, influence and tyranny of what would become HUGE GLOBAL CORPORATIONS running rough shod over everyone.
Corporations run this country unfortunately.
We are sending Americans to die in Iraq for Democracy when the shiat doesn't even work here anymore thanks to GREED!!!!
The people say they don't want this or that and then the damn politicians pass bills and raise taxes to build crap that citizens opposed.
If that isn't bad enough the Supreme Court says Private property can now be seized by a city and sold to a private corporation that wants to build a casino or some other shiat that will increase the tax base.
This Country is FUGGED UP boys and girls.
We have got to figure out how to start an effective Third Political Party to fight against the Dumbocrats and the RebubliCROOKS or we will all go back to being virtual peasants!!
Later,Norm
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
Peanut squirriel - the reason Daimler/Chrysler is doing good is because that are no longer american owned. to my knowledge they are now owned by mercedes-benz which would explain why when i was watching the stock market in italy why there was a german flag by its name and not a US flag.
A:
A few of you need to go back to highschool and college(if you have ever been) and listen up in your economics classes. Free trade does benifit the rich, BUT it benifits society alot more in the long run. I know the long run doesnt really mean alot to some of you being that you are much older than me (20), but its a concern to me and my future children and grand children. Free trade makes alot of the things we by ALOT cheaper. However, sometimes we loss some quality but in the end its still better. If american companys are selling a product at 8 dollars and there is no free trade on that particular item, there is no incentive to make that product better or change the price anylower. If there is no danger of the american companys being undersold things stay the same, technology haults, and prices either rise or stay the same with NO advance in the aid product. If trade is opened on that product or industry, and another country(s) are making that product for say 6 dollars a piece, american companys are forced to change something. Either they keep the same price and raise the quality standards to keep the american buyers(something american car companys dont understand) or the price lowers to meet the world price and life goes on. People might loss jobs in the industry cut but there will ALWAYS be other jobs. Industrial world competition keeps technology were it is, moving forward, its the reason we have the things we do today. It also forces the industry to change to meet the demands of the people not the people live with what ever the industry decided they want to do.
In regards to GM, the union members just need to understand that if the company goes under, where are they going to work. Granted there will be other jobs for them somewhere, its still the hassle and worry that they might not find such an easy and well paying job like moving a damned engine block from one line to the next. Companys like VW REQUIRE many if not all employees working in the design and production of vehicles to have at LEAST a bachloers degee. How many people working the line at GM have steped foot in a college for more than 2 years MAYBE. GM has one of the highest if not the highest retirement and beinifits programs in the US. Its ridiculous. American companys need to get off there high horses and learn from the Japanese, they are obviously doing something right, so listen the hell up and change what they are doing wrong, which seems to be most everything.
ANd Norm i hate the war and most everything that Bush does, but free trade isnt the devil that you discribe, and why cant there be a disussion without the mention of the war and iraq and blah blah, it has nothing to do with GM so stop bringing it up....
Jason:
'77 280zT coupe: 8.8:1, flat tops, .030 over, Msd-6al, 60mm tb, cold air, 2.5" exhaust and DP, no cat, GReddy type RS BOV, medium intercooler
Post Edited (Nov 22, 10:24pm)
A:
One thing I have to agree with Norm on... Unions get a bad rap until you suffer what non-unionized businesses go through. They have prevented a lot of pain, at the cost of bloat. But they are a necessary thing to regulate industry. It is what makes America different from China, etc.
A:
well norm it seems like you definitely are on the right track..... This you are speaking of is happening in a lot of places. It is the spoils of planet earth getting used by a very very small portion of the human race. The big ball is thundering down the hill and there is really no way to stop it. i just know when these individuals die they WILL pay. The pain and suffering that they have inflicted to common working man so they can have a bigger house or even a bigger house on a bigger hill is inexcusable!! Most of the time it is a suit that is going to reach into your pocket and steal. They have this virus that when they put the suit on they believe that they are just that little bit better than most. i agree with you and just get ready for the whole damn thing to go up in smoke. The goverments and banks want to keep common joe hungry...you know one cheque away from disaster. Keep them there and you control them.... .Find out what there threshold of credit is and put them there... got to keep working to pay off that credit.
the bloody mess is all connected.advertising,tv,insurance,goverment ,police,, make a wave..next thing you got the irs on you ...after a while you get decensitized and you become robotic..this is what they want...... enjoy it cause it aint gettin any better anytime soon......drzee
drzee
A:
I like unions that are reasonable. I was fortunate to work in one. They had a great relationship with Mgmt and everyone won. Only 1 strike in 50 years
COTU :)
I have worked in several other jobs with no union protection and have experienced abuses that a union would not tolerate.
Also I am with Norm on free trade. It does not work. Some countries can be bullies even though they say otherwise for sure.
Injector Cleaning Service
THE FREE ONLINE INDEPENDENT Z STORE
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A:
c kelly i think youre right , i do lump all american cars in one area and i do know that not all american cars are totaly garbage...just my opinion i guess. norm i couldnt agree more
A:
Norm your right about the third party. If we could just get someone else in besides a Democrat or Republican.
I also think that unfortunately something big is going to collapse here soon.
Morgan
1973 240Z 4 screw SU's, Tokico HP's, Toyota Calipers
1946 Willys-Overland CJ-2A (restoration in progress)
2006 Ural Gear-Up
A:
Well Jason, once you go back and pass English writing class I guess we'll go back to the economics class........... Dude, you do realize the crap they teach you in school is to make you a mind numbed robot for the FAIRY TALE OF FREE TRADE, right?? The corporations see to it that the dribble you are taught in school is exactly the dribble they want you to believe!!
Have you ever thought that with WAL MART demanding the lowest price from every suppiler that NO American company can even produce an item cheaply enough to get on Wal Mart's shelves??
You can't afford NOT to do business with Wal Mart and you can't afford TO DO business with Wal Mart.
And QUALITY??? Good grief, I guess you are so young that you don't even remember the quality merchandise that USED to be available to the American consumer. Now all you have is Chinese SHIAT that won't last a 1/4 as long.
Just try to find a decent electric can opener. Hell I've gone through three in the last two years!!
And guess what, the prices HAVE NOT gone down at all when you consider the INFERIOR quality of the products you are now forced to buy because quality manufactuers couldn't even get their product on Wal Mart's shelves.
And why you ask???
BECAUSE our IDIOT POLITICIANS with their FREE TRADE FAIRY TALE POLICIES have allowed American companies to close their plants here and move them overseas for cheap labor while the companies that try to stay here in America get put out of business by letting the WAL MARTS and every other greedy retail baztards buy EVEYTHING from CHINA and all the other third world countries.
Before Sam Walton died he made sure that WAL MART always sold AMERICAN products FIRST!! ALso he gave 90% of his income to Charity.....HOWEVER once he died his baztard GREEDY children stopped buying ANYTHING American Made if there was some cheap azz inferior product available that they could make a killing on.
Thanks "FREE TRADE" advocates.
Also, the Wal Mart heirs now give just 2% of their income to Charity as compared to the 90% Sam Walton gave!!
That IS A FACT that was just published this week in the Philanthropy ratings.
NOW,think again El Jason, how are people gonna keep buying stuff when everyone is BROKE with their new $6 an hour job WITH NO BENEFITS that replaced their $20 an hour job with GREAT BENEFITS???
You do realize that THE ONLY REASON this economy hasn't tanked is that CREDIT CARD companies have allowed Americans to keep buying even when they have no money in the bank.
You take away credit cards and this economy WOULD CRASH ALL THE WAY TO HELL!!!
FREE TRADE SUCKS and the reason I linked it to the war is to show you how RICH Americans REAP the benefits of security and freedom provided by POOR American soldiers and then they turn around AND SHAFT the POOR Americans out of every possible venue to financial success.
If you are just 20 years old then I understand your ROSE COLORED GLASSES view of FREE TRADE. But when you have seen 15,000 manufacturing jobs leave your own county in just 4 years then you will KNOW that FREE TRADE is a FARCE!!!!!
Also, if you aren't concerned about us making OUR NUMBER ONE COMMUNIST ENEMY CHINA wealthy and prosperous(thus allowing them to INCREASE their MILITARY MIGHT) then ask yourself how wise it would have been to have moved American companies to say Hitler's Germany in 1934???
It might have been a little hard for us to have manfactured all the equipment we needed to fight WWII if all our plants and equipment had been moved to Germany years earlier..........hhmm????
THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!
Later,Norm
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
Post Edited (Nov 23, 9:47am)
A:
Asian quality? There are several trucks backed up the the dock right now being loaded with asian crap on it's way back to China.....
Ever tried to repair a plastic turn table? I work in this Wal-Mart/Target/K-Mart product industry at the moment, one of Wal-Marts suppliers. Not one single bit of it is designed, or built in this country. The company I work for has been in business since 1912, they use to supply quality electronics to the public. Now they buy every single piece of it from China, and put their name on it. I see every form of inferior assembly, some downright assembled wrong and design you could possibly imagine, and workmanship?? HogWash! Some of the poorest workmanship I've ever seen. I failed electronics students in college who couldn't solder any better than the morons over there assembling this crap.
Who cares if it only costs $39.95, what good is it when in a year you have returned it 3 or 4 times?
Ken
'82ZX n/a 2+2
'02 Sportster XL1200C
A:
Well being that i wrote that entire thing in like 3 minutes and i have about equal time on this one, english is not exactly what i was trying to convey.
Free trade is more than just the company outsourceing you like to discribe it as. The idea free trade takes in alot more things than just what i describe and what you rant about.
However outsourceing for large companys is one of the best things they can do for themselves. They take there jobs and companys over-seas to hire more qualified college grads cheaper, to do the same thing they were paying less qualified americans to do for alot more $$. Anyone in there right mind would take advantage of that. I also can see where you are coming from because some of those jobs and companys are making it into the hands of those that dont deserve them.
If my generation is being taught "crap" and education has changed sooo much since you were there, then this is only because your generation failed to keep things the same. My generations curriculum of "FAIRY TALE OF FREE TRADE" had to come from somewhere. If it wasnt something you were taught, then obviously it is something that was invented by people before me. If you feel so strongly about politics and the way buisnesses are ran today, then maybe some of you should have been involved where these decisions were being made. It is the product of generations before me that messed up buisness and became greedy.
Ever think that maybe the things we learn in school today are to educate us of our elders mistakes and keep us from doing the same?
Before pointing the finger at modern buisness ethics and current politics, do some finger pointing a little closer to home....
Jason:
'77 280zT coupe: 8.8:1, flat tops, .030 over, Msd-6al, 60mm tb, cold air, 2.5" exhaust and DP, no cat, GReddy type RS BOV, medium intercooler
A:
Tell you what Jason, i'm an old fart, and will take the blame for all the current problems in the world, if you personally take the blame for all the future crisis'. Kinda brings it all into perspective doesn't it.
Black, bumperless, 78 Z with MSA superturbo system, K/N cone filter, ported intake, and exhaust manifolds.....15.9 @87 mph.
A:
Hey Jason, does a vote for Ross Perot count as doing something??
Ross warned about the job losses that would come from FREE TRADE and based on the state of our manufacturing sector today I'd say he has been vindicated!!
BTW, do you think the RICH who are protected by the blood of the POOR American soldier should feel some sort of patriotic obligation to keep jobs available for Americans in this country instead of shipping them overseas??
GREED and the lack of HONOR and CARING will drive this country into economic ruin in the coming years. If you think that there will ALWAYS be JOBS available then you are living in a FAIRY TALE world.
If your theory is correct then why are there no jobs available in all these third world countries which LACK a manufacturing base????
There are NO economically prosperous countries in the world today that lack either a strong manufacturing base or an oil production based economy.Tourism based economies do NOT lift the majority of it's citizens out of poverty.
We don't have much oil in the USA so we better damn well have a strong manufacturing sector if we are to survive as a properous nation.
Later,Norm
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
My statement that the US will always have jobs is because we DO have a manufacturing base. Third world countrys are exactly that, third world, because they lack an economy that can survive on its own. What the future brings as far as our current manufacturing base, who knows.
However I doubt the U.S. can survive on its own without trade anymore, we have gotten to the point where our economy survives on trade. The U.S. has so many outside investors from other countrys that the simply withdraw of there money from our banks could very much upset our economy.
What is it now like Saudi and other forgien oil investors literaly own 7% of the U.S. economy, some trillions of middle eastern money are in U.S. banks alone. The U.S. will not survive if we closed off our borders from the rest of the world. Maybe our current situation would have never gotten as bad as it is now if we never allowed for so much trade, but ill bet we would be no where the nation of power we are now without FREE TRADE.
Since when does anything good come without anything bad?
And as far as the problems of the future go, taking the blame for all those problems does not put anything into perspective. Now blameing them on my generation of mind numbed robots, would be a better kick back to reality.
And unfortunetly voting is about the only thing most of us can do, but obviously there are some that get out and do more than vote.
I actually voted for Nader in the last election. I knew he wouldnt win but i have this thing about voting for people that are a little to close to a terrorists familys, and extreme democrats that really dont know what they are talking about.
I guess my plan is to take advantage off everything this country has to offer, then retire in peace, in Canada....
Jason:
'77 280zT coupe: 8.8:1, flat tops, .030 over, Msd-6al, 60mm tb, cold air, 2.5" exhaust and DP, no cat, GReddy type RS BOV, medium intercooler
Post Edited (Nov 23, 10:59pm)
A:
" Corporations run this country unfortunately. "
Get used to it, unions have very little pull anymore, and less everyday.
I worked and watched our union CWU, demand higher and higher wages
till the company finally said , (ITTBCC), its selling this unit of ITT, The
employees got hold of the union, asked if they was anything they could
do. So they sold, and people went from 28.00 pr hour to 10.00, with
little to no bennys.
You gotta love the free market, its America.
America is in grave danger, and I dont see a fix, better learn chineese
quick.
It dosent matter who sold out to who....its over with.
82zxt /5sp /Fsm /Tools /Med Knowledge /Tampa /And a little Learned Luck.
A:
25 years ago, there were no free trade agreements in Mexico. Comerce doors were closed to the world. There were only a few foreign brands of products allowed by the goverment and everything else was produced and consumed in Mexico. TVs, radios, furniture, everything was produced in Mexico, and since there was no competition, quality control was non existent. There were no "customer service" departments anywhere. Once you buy something, you had to keep it whether it works or not. Once you buy it, it's your problem.
Prices and taxes were extremely high (did you know that even today a new car is about $5,000 to $10,000 dollars more expensive in Mexico than in the US???) and there was nothing you coud do about it. Buying foreign products and bringing them across the border was considered illegal, and you could go to jail if you get caught doing it.
Then, the mexican goverment started yielding under globalization pressure, and got involved in trade agrrements with other countries (including the US and Canada). There were many people against it, but I thinks the results are good for most people.
As foreign products (lower price and better quality) started to appear in mexican stores, some mexican companies died, and some evolved and became stronger (sounds familiar, doesn't it?).
I know what you're thinking, Mexico with it's cheap labor took away many american jobs, but guess what, labor in South America and China is cheaper than ours, and they are taking away our jobs too!!! Foreign companies that once started operations here because of our cheap labor are now taking them away!!!! Even mexican companies are moving their manufacturing facilities to lower waged countries!!!!
So, as long as you live in a globalized world (I'm not saying that it is a good thing, I just say that this is where we have to live) you have to live with free trade. A country could close it's doors to globalization, but it will be like Mexico 25 years ago, and believe me, I've been there and I like it better now.
There are good and bad things about it. You can get better products for equal or lower prices, and you can loose jobs. One thing is for sure, individuals and companies will have to learn and evolve, or they will just perish.
12/70 240Z, L28ET, 10 PSI, 5 sp, R200 3.54, A/C... "Better, stronger, faster..."
Post Edited (Nov 24, 6:40am)
A:
One thing that has been totally LEFT out of this debate is the fact that HIGH GAS prices have led to the problems GM is facing today. It isn;t so much a quality problem as a fuel economy problem.
SUV's and trucks were their bread and butter and once fuel skyrocketed the vehicles stopped selling thus leading to the job cuts of this week.
I guess we should have the auto execs kick the living shiat out of the oil execs.
Idiot Oil execs raped the American people and now even though gas has fallen people are still afraid to go out and buy a vehicle that only gets 14 mpg.
Thanks ******* OIL EXECS for screwing our most important industry still remaining in America.
And as pointed out by MexZcan, you CANNOT cut your wages enough to prevent AMerican companies from relocating.
OUR DUMBASS POLITICANS must change the Trade laws to state that if you move your American company oversesas for cheap labor you must sell your inferior shiat there and YOU WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED TO IMPORT YOUR PRODUCTS INTO AMERICA EVER AGAIN YOU TREASONOUS GREEDY BAZTARDS!!!!
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
oK NORM if that would fly and there could be a law about american companys leaving and not being able to sell there products here in the u.s. afterward. I would be all for it.
And i COMPLETELY agree with the fact that oil prices are where they are becasue of politics and namely our president. Now we arent going to start a debate over Bush because that will go on forever but, gas prices are where they are because of decisions HE and his council made.
And GM is an example of what Mex-z-can is talking about. Either GM will adapt to the new demand better fuel economy, or, they will perish. Nothing any politicans can do to help GM now, except for bailing them out once they go belly-up.
Sadly if GM wants to stay in game they should really look for a forgien car company to buy them out, "merge" with them. Seems to be working just fine for Daimler-Chrysler.
And has anyone seen the new ways japanese car companys are selling there cars??? I just saw a comercial for nissan or mitsubishi, somehting like that, but they are giving away with their cars, a YEAR of free gas. Granted it is probably no where near the amount any american would need for a year, but, thats just damn good marketing....
Jason:
'77 280zT coupe: 8.8:1, flat tops, .030 over, Msd-6al, 60mm tb, cold air, 2.5" exhaust and DP, no cat, GReddy type RS BOV, medium intercooler
A:
And did anyone ponder this?
Without FREE TRADE this site would not exist.....this site would not exist because its subject would not exist.... The Z car(s) are here because of free trade
No matter the arguement against free trade, this will always be my ultimate response....
Jason:
'77 280zT coupe: 8.8:1, flat tops, .030 over, Msd-6al, 60mm tb, cold air, 2.5" exhaust and DP, no cat, GReddy type RS BOV, medium intercooler
A:
We used to NOT want to trade with Communists and enrich them so that they could increase their military power.
The Z was here in 1969 WELL before the disasters of NAFTA , PERMANENT MOST FAVORED TRADING STATUS with CHINA and now CAFTA!!
There were protections built in back then and American companies COULD NOT relocate TO COMMUNIST COUNTRIES!!
I mean damn, we are being flooded now with textiles form VIETNAM!!!
If that isn't a slap in the face to veterans I'd like to know what is!!
We SHOULD NOT BE TRADING PARTNERS WITH COMMUNIST COUNTIRES OR REPRESSIVE NON DEMOCRATIC REGIMES!!!!!!
Later,Norm
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
Post Edited (Nov 24, 10:32am)
A:
"What's good for General Motors is good for the country." This statement has been attributed to then President of General Motors, Charles Wilson, more than fifty years ago.
Sad it's not true today.
JR in Tulsa (4EVER Z)
73 240Z - L28, Triple Miks, 5 speed, 3.9.
83 stock 280ZX
Chaos, panic, and disorder---my work here is done!
A:
Also, GM could have never forseen the OUTRAGEOUS Health Care Costs of today back in 1960 when they promised lifetime coverage.
There is another area where the DUMBASS Politicians are to blame for killing American businesses by not containing Health Care Costs.
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
Post Edited (Nov 24, 1:40pm)
A:
I'm all for Free Trade - But - it isn't free.
If all countries played by the same rules it would work, but many countries don't play fair.
China and Japan are holding our dollars and debt because they restrict our trade into their countries and we greedily accept their cheaper products.
Our companies not only outsource the manufacturing but the technical know how to make our products then lo & behold, our products aren't selling because China and Japan and others have pirated the products and no intenational court is bringing them to task.
I'm well aware of the history of unions and they were needed, then went overboard and became just another layer of management so their executives could make as much as the company executives and the workers fend for themselves.
What are our big corporations going to do when it all falls apart and middle working class Americans (the vast majority of the population) can't afford even the cheap overseas products to live on, let alone service from American companies.
In some way or another we are all responsible for this mess: we all buy from Wal-Mart, less than half of us vote.
Maybe it will take a revolution, but not neccesarilly with guns. We maybe too poor to afford the bullets.
But what do I know? I'm a tired old fart and I voted for some of the same idiots that got us in this mess. I though I was voting for the lesser of two evils.
Ed and Jeanne's
ZXelda 1981 280 ZXT: ZXena 1990 300 ZX
1941 Buick Special Sedanette (Betty)
1956 Dodge Royal (Dorothy)
1971 Buick Riviera (Rita)
1975 Ford F-150 Stepside (Fiona)
1992 Firebird (Frieda)
A:
Sure buddy, your guns against those Hell-Fire missles from an old friend, the Apache Helicopter. NK PS; "First we're fighting in Veitnam and now they make our Levis. It's like magic!" I'm waiting for Persian rugs from Iran... It may take some time.
Norman Krell
A:
"I also agree that the unions brought the company to its knees. Yes Norm, unions had their purpose long ago... but now they're a burden.
Labor unions have destroyed America's work ethic."
Oh bullshit. Stop being a parrot for rightwing thinktanks and their corporate masters...
My old faithful 85t is gone to a new owner with fresh motivation. The next z...coming soon. Oh yeah almost forgot...it's here
A:
Instead of Countries Rising up.
With free trade its dragging everyone down to 3rd world status.
82zxt /5sp /Fsm /Tools /Med Knowledge /Tampa /And a little Learned Luck.
A:
Exactly Phoneman!! Your statement really sums it all up!!
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
On this one you're wrong Norm.
Look to USX and see the EXACT same policies of management cozying up to the UNion giving them every little concession they wanted till before they knew it they had contracts with the union that said they had to pay people for coming into work WETHER THEY NEEDED THEM OR NOT, contracts that stated they could not SHUT DOWN EXCESS CAPACITY...
If you think the union didn't have a role in this, and that "Free Trade" is to blame, ask yourself why the UNION is SELLING OUT THEIR RETIREES!
I LAUGH at the retired GM employees who thought they got over on MANAGEMENT with each and every contract. How it was the MANAGEMENT that was screwing them.
And now, retired, they realize the UNION will SCREW THEM because (uh, duuuuuh!) if the COMPANY is not there to PAY THE BENEFITS, then THERE ARE NO BENEFITS TO GET!
The benefits are derived from the COMPANY, not through the UNION.
When union members start realizing they REALLY DO work for the COMPANY and not the UNION (a common miscomception for Big Three Employees) things will get better.
For now, they have to pay the piper for the years they union extorted a willing management into bloated unsustainable benefits packages that have come home to roost!
What the union bargained for was UNSUSTAINABLE.
What the management gave in to under duress of EXTORTION from the unions (work and production stability) was UNFORGIVABLE.
Problem was if they put their foot down in the 80's WHEN THEY SHOULD HAVE, the management would have been pilloried by popular media as UNCARING AND UNFEELING BIG BUSINESS.
It literally HAD to get this bad for those BLOATED PIGS IN THE UNION AND ON THE UNION PAYROLLS to realize that if they DON'T STOP HOGGING THE TROUGH, they really CAN "shut em down"---and when that UNION MANTRA is finally realized, OH SHITE! They realize that when they are SHUT DOWN they don't pay ANY BENEFITS! NONE!
TO NOBODY!
So the union had to realize that WITHOUT THE COMPANY there can be NO UNION!
When GM goes under, and Toyota buys them up, and moves the facilities to non-union friendly states, and resumes production, I will CHEER!
You didn't have to move from your home state to get a job because nobody in the union would sponsor you to join because your father was a "management type". I DID. Far as I'm concerned, EVERYONE has a RIGHT to work, and if you don't like the conditions undwer which you work, LEAVE.
I never believed in a union's ability to FORCE a non-business savvy decision upon a management that wants to keep the company open and doing business. That's wrong.
What they did, they did almost 70 years ago. What they did in the last 50 was run industrial production OUT OF THE COUNTRY with excessive and unrealistic demands.
I've been overseas, and not all "non union" facilities there are the hellholes the union makes them out to be.
Matter of fact, the average AUTOMOTIVE LINEWORKERS' WAGE in Japan EXCEEDED the UAW's average in the mid 1980's.
In fact, the wages in KOREA exceeded the UAW's average two years ago!
Why? Because companies making cars people WANT TO BUY allow for a company to raise wages and benefits.
THAT is the problem, not "free trade"!
Japanese companies make cars here because it's CHEAPER. And as long as the UNION is kept out of the plants it will REMAIN SO!
Unions here in the USA are BAD, and they have had net BAD effects the past 20 or so years. They became FAR too powerful.
You want a prime example? Look at California Public Workers!!!
I say no more, this PMTFO!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Hey Tony you your are leaving out one factor in your assessment.
EXORBITANT MANAGEMENT PAY!!!
CEO PAY IS RIDICULOUS!!!
When management starts acting like adults then maybe the union membership will as well!!
And bte FREE TRADE with COMMUNIST COUNTRIES is CRAZY AS HELL!!!!!!!!
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
Take a look what the union dues pay to the head of the union.
Management pay may be exorbitant, but so is Union Bosses' pay!
Compensation sniping is part of the union class-envy tactics.
Do they "deserve" what they get paid? Many times they get a pay reduction when projections do not meet projections. At the level of pay they are at, the pay is not so much for any living reason it's a status thing. Meaning small-dicked MBA's trying to outdo other small-dicked MBA's.
Then again, the more levels of management you stick under an MBA, at 15% pay increase over their highest paid subordinate doesn't take long to make millions when you got LINE WORKERS pulling down $106,000+.....
Norm, you really need to realize that I find it REAL HARD to cry tears for people (Union Autoworkers) making $106,000+ per year, who complain how overworked, underpaid, and unappreciated they are, ESPECIALLY when they think I have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO WORK IN MY HOME STATE unless I pay tribute to their bosses protection racket!
Why is it illegal for the mafia to charge protection against people on a block, or to extort money from business people to "keep them free from accidents" yet a union can do EXACTLY the same thing?
No, sorry, Unions got TOO powerful, wielded TOO much influence, and ended up with contracts that were unsustainable. Serves 'em right. They needed a reality check.
Also, there are executives in the dozens, when you add up total salaries and perks (as required to do under SEC Guidelines and be reported in annual reports) you realize those numbers are but a pittance when compared to the masses of unskilled and semi-skilled workers they pay. It's easier to take a dollar from a dozen than 12 dollars from one person. That's the way taxing the middle class works, it the way companies run.
While the numbers for an individual look big, in the total operational budget they are not that big.
Thought the Japanese plan of 5X compensation spread would seem to be a more prudent plan for stockholders' dividends... Anything that increases my dividends makes me happy. Especially long term.
BTW, my Father-in-Law is on UAW retirement. He cries that he is on a fixed income. His fixed income of ONLY $80,000 a year makes me sick. It's more than he made when he was WORKING!
And you say that is RIGHT? I don't. And I think it's unsustainable. Like I say to him: "Welcome to the real world, dude!"
We argue a lot when I'm over. He's a socialist, but really is upset by all the taxes he has to pay since he retired. Funny how he became a fiscal conservative the day he retired, after being a fiscal liberal his whole life.
I call that hipocracy. Most Union guys from the Big Three are like that....
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"