General Chat
Q:
Car 1: 1981 280ZX NA 5 speed all stock, no mods.
Car 2: 1983 280ZX NA 5 speed, MSA header, MSA stage II cam, Monza full exhaust no cat, Energy Suspension Poly bushings, SS brake lines and clutch lines, no egr.
Car 1 and Car 2 lined up 50mph rolling start in 5th. Car 1 walks away.
Stop light line up to 70mph, Car 1 walks away.
All out road race down back roads, peaking at 100mph. Car 1 matches all the way. (Traffic wasn't clear enough to pass).
Goes to prove what several have been saying the whole time on here. A cam and exhaust will slow you down in the end. Gotta do something with that intake. I was shocked, I expected car 2 to blow me away. His car is in much better shape mechanically.
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77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
Post Edited (Oct 9, 7:49am)
A:
Maybe he just sucks at driving....
Mario
1976 280Z - Dad's Z (turbo swap?)
1978 280Z - Stock Rebuild | 5 Speed | Twice Pipes | Gutted
1982 280ZX - Turbo | MSnS-E | 5 Speed | Large NPR IC
BROKE: Will build computers, webpages, networks, MS units, troubleshoot computers for money
A:
"Goes to prove what several have been saying the whole time on here. A cam and exhaust will slow you down in the end."
No, it proves nothing.
You made no mention of weight, transmission ratios, rear end ratios, drivers, wheels or even general condition of the cars.
A:
You forgot to mention car #2 had a 98 year old woman driving it with a seeing eye dog pawing the shift lever for her.
A:
LOL Nut behind the wheel.....biggest variable of all. A poorly setup car with mods CAN be slower than a stocker as well.
Ken
'82ZX n/a 2+2
'02 Sportster XL1200C
A:
it is not about the mods it is about how you can and willing to drive them!!!
its all about driving not the car
You can sleep in your car, but cant drive in your house
if you are fully in control, you are not driving fast enough!
79 ZXR 46K!
81 ZXT EURO 2+2
83 ZXT
All fine Fastback winnabego's
A:
During our convention a few years back we had our track day at Williow Springs Raceway.
John Morton, (you know who he is, don't you), attended and drove a couple of club owners cars.
Some of our very seasoned owners were surprised at how well an accomplished driver could make their cars complete laps in times lower than they had ever seen.
Car is one variable, but historically I've seen great drivers make great runs in marginal cars.
That's why you see wrecked Ferraris on PCH in Malibu, low skilled drivers.
But, you put a great car with a great driver and you win consistently.
Ask Micheal Schumacher.
A:
Also keep in mind that it takes a hell of a lot more than just bolting on some parts to make a car go fast. Proper tuning is critical!!!
Nigel
'73 240ZT
"Horsepower Through Technology"
A:
I agree h4lights - a couple years ago at the Zcar nationals autocross, somebody - I can't remember who, took a fully loaded (4 passengers) Mazda Tribute front wheel drive out on track and killed just about everyone else's times.
'79 280zx (gone - head-on collision)
'73 240zt - currently in pieces
A:
Adding a cam without more compression may hurt HP.
-1981 280zx
-89 Jeep Cherokee
F-54 - N-47 - 9.8:1 comp - 6-3-1 header -Schneider (470 lift, 280 dur.) - full 2 1/4 exhaust- Pallnet fuel rail - 6 puck ceramic clutch
A:
Ignoring the rediculous comments of certain people...
My buddies 83ZX is well maintained, he's a mechanic for Chrysler and throws his car in the bay every Saturday to tune it and clean it up. The thing that I think slowed him down is that he put a cam and exhaust on, but hasn't done anything with the stock intake or fuel injection. Every time he jumped on it he would blow a bit of black smoke out of the exhaust. I can't tell if this is just because he has no cat and the carbon is blowing out or if he's running slightly rich. The car runs and drives incredibly well, which is why this surprised me so much. And running side by side at 50mph and stepping on the gas without changing gears has nothing to do with the driver. I still pulled on him like he has lost his low end torque.
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77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
"My buddies 83ZX is well maintained"
So WHY is it blowing black smoke?
His car is not "tuned" if his mixture is too rich (lower combustion temps, lower power).
A:
Hybrid77Z, don't comment on my threads, don't comment on my posts, just stay away from me and keep it to yourself. I don't like you, I don't need your comments and rarely do you ever contribute anything worth while to a thread. Go away.
In answer to your question however, he doesn't have a cat, I don't think he's running rich, I think it's carbon blowing out. His plugs are even and clean.
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77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
Post Edited (Oct 9, 12:37pm)
A:
Carbon? As in elemental carbon mist? Probably not.
The plugs will stay clean if he's close to the right mixture most of the time (black smoke only under WOT). Too rich means he's loosing power at WOT.
So what ARE the weights and the rear end ratio differences between the two cars?
A:
It's stock to stock, why don't you go look it up if you're so curious. Should be in the corresponding FSMs.
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77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
Also what are the differences in drivers weight and how much gas is in each cars tank etc. those 2 things itself can account for as much as .2 difference in a 1/4 mile time easily or an advantage at any given mph start.
A:
From HybridZ.org
280ZX 79 MT,4 Spd,2 Seater (3.364) (R180)
280ZX 79 MT,5 Spd,2 Seater (3.364) (R180)
280ZX 79 All With Automatic(3.545) (R180)
280ZX 79 MT,4 Spd,4 Seater (3.364) (R200)
280ZX 79 MT,5 Spd,4 Seater (3.7) (R200)
280ZX-GL 79 (3.7) (R200)
280ZX 80 MT,2 Seater (3.545) (R180)
280ZX 80 Automatic 2/4Seat (3.545) (R180)
280ZX 80 MT,4 Seater (3.9) (R200)
280ZX-GL 80 (3.9) (R200)
280ZX 81-83 Automatic all (3.545) (R180)
280ZX 81-83 Turbo - all (3.545) (R200)
280ZX 81-83 MT (3.9) (R200)
Car 1: 1981 280ZX NA 5 speed
Car 2: 1983 280ZX NA 5 speed
Looks like both are 3.90 geared cars.
A:
"It's stock to stock, why don't you go look it up if you're so curious"
Now it's stock Vs stock?
I thought you said one car was modified?
I asked if you knew for certain what the driveline was in the modified car. Things change after 25 years of various owners so nothing is for certain (even if it's listed in the FSM).
A:
The wrong ignition timing and cam timing alone could easily be costing him up to 25 HP.
When I put a header K&N, exhaust and little 262/272 cam in my stock 240Z it could run 14.8's all day long.
Cam and exhaust do make a difference when tuned correctly and Driven correctly.
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
Post Edited (Oct 9, 2:41pm)
A:
Stock trans and stock rear you arrogant SOB. Go screw with someone else you prick.
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77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
I only ask since you said you've replaced the tranny once already (from some "parts car" unknown). If the other car was modded driven hard and on a rack every weekend then chances are he's not running original parts either.
It's not being arrogant at all, it's just a fair question about confirming the setup.
A:
It was mentioned he's a "Chrysler" mechanic. Being a mechaqnic for Chrysler doesnt mean squat. He could be a certified oil changer.
A:
navaithan, my friend and i own a 1982 280ZX that runs a 15.1 flat in the 1/4...
its COMPLETELY stock except for a cheap cone air filter and a cut exhaust pipe after the cat...
the thing is, its timed at 36degrees at 3K RPM...
now i can completely vouch for you, cause with my old engine setup before it was running correctly ran a 15.092 ...so thats barely any difference, and my old engine had a stage 2 cam, 60mm TB, exhust, intake, blah blah...
so i believe ya...
he just wasnt making the power, and he had it "de-tuned" probbaly...if he timed it cam and ign wise correctly, he should and would probbaly pull on you a little bit...
the intake IS a restriction, but not in this case---
Norm, you had SU's on the 240, right? those runners are a lot bigger than the EFI runners.... an SU'ed car can easily out run a built EFI car with the stock intake, you know that!
==============================================
High Performance NA L28 engine, Performance Suspension, Full Interior, 2500lbs, and room for 3 HOT girls in the car!
shift_2+2
13.9 @102.7 on 205mm street tires and 110 octane :-)
A:
norm, for a cam with .480 lift and .274 duration (in and exh) would the stock mechanical timing still be adequate or should he be looking for more advance?
______________________________________________________________________________
77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
Yes, fair questions, had they been worded more like questions and less like insults. The attitude you present eveytime I read on of your posts is arrogant and insulting. They should have banned you instead of Tony D.
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77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
He is a trained and certified mechanic. He went to school at the Auto Diesel College in Nashville TN. He's not the oil change guy, I met the oil change guy, he's an idiot.
______________________________________________________________________________
77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
He may not have the mechanical timing right. I wasn't there when he did the install, but he more than likely went back to the original timing points. Same with the iginition timing. That I know is set stock as I helped set it.
______________________________________________________________________________
77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
Well, YOU made a statement of "proof", then its up tou YOU to know the parameters of the test. Of it's offensive to you when other point out other valid reasons for what you saw, then too bad.
Lack of reasoning is what gets modders into trouble. It takes testing, testing and more REAL testing. Saying those mods don't make a difference is just as bad as believing they do without logical testing...
A:
Yeah naviathan that's probably his problem.
Whenever you install a cam you will normally need more ignition timing.
I personally witnessed an N/A L6 motor pick up 15 HP on the Dyno by merely adjusting the ignition timing up a few degrees.
Tell him to try setting his timing at 32 degrees at 3000 rpm with the vacuum advance disconnected and then reconnnect the vaccum advance and take it for a spin. I'll bet you the difference will be felt immediately if he is currently set at 20 degrees at 3000 rpm.
Later,Norm
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
Post Edited (Oct 9, 8:03pm)
A:
TonyD was banned? When did this happen? Bubbles coming to the rescue? I go away for a few days and this place turns upside down!
02/1976 280Z
An amateur trying to restore the Z. I should have taken the blue pill!
A:
tonyD got banned? how? and for what reason?
1993 TwinTurbo Ultra Red (M/T) SOLD! :(
94 Honda civic hatchback with 110 horsepower.....yay.
A:
no no!!! 36 degrees!!!!!
at least with my engine thats where is best...this is where i time all my friends Z car engines, and they seem to work out best there....
==============================================
High Performance NA L28 engine, Performance Suspension, Full Interior, 2500lbs, and room for 3 HOT girls in the car!
shift_2+2
13.9 @102.7 on 205mm street tires and 110 octane :-)
A:
Yeah I run mine at 36 also, but I wanted to leave some cushion room in case he runs low octane or has some bad carbon buildup or anything else that might make it detonate.
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
hopefully he doesnt put low octane in it!! ;-)
but yeah, just try 32 see if it works---then keep going up to 36...if it pings, back off a lil bit!
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High Performance NA L28 engine, Performance Suspension, Full Interior, 2500lbs, and room for 3 HOT girls in the car!
shift_2+2
13.9 @102.7 on 205mm street tires and 110 octane :-)
A:
Just um...throw in a Jeep dizzy! Yeah!
wTf????
I don't know, just making bulls*** posts for fun.
It's really entertaining to watch some of you guys (okay, just one of you guys) pick out every discrepancy in naviathan's post. Nobody can talk about versus things around here and get away with it!
;-)
1976 280Z
Draw-Through Turbo, 10 PSI, 4 Bbl Holley, E88, L28 (Flat), 10:1 CR, 5 Spd
1974 Corvette Stingray:
350, 400 Automatic, T-Tops, 8.5:1 CR, 78,000 Miles
1994 Acura Integra:
1.8L, 5 Spd, 189,000 and Counting!
A:
If he is running stock compression and his motor isnt completely caked in carbon, I dont think running 87 octane in it will make it ping. 8.8:1 isnt exactly high compression.
36 is alright for a stock set-up. I think it was Dan or John that made peak HP on his car at 34 (3.1 stroker) and actually lost power going up.
it differs for every car, but 36 is better than 20, LOL!
I would say something is wrong with your freinds car if you are keeping up with him and beating him in most cases. I noticed a decent jump just by putting on a 2.5" cat back on my car, and that was before the MN47 head.
McAdam
1980 280zx with a mildly ported N47 maxima head, 60mm TB, -C- stamp 256 degree camshaft, and a 2.5inch mandrel bent exhaust. yeah, its quick, and yeah, its a 2+2. NOW with MSandS_E power!
A:
I gotta ask
is Tony D banned here for real?
A man with his expertise and experience in Z-cars is pushed out
and a pompus sanctimonious embicilic egocentic hypocite like Hybrid is left to bully anyone on this site who doesn't agree with him?
The Z Gods will be angry.
This may well be one of the signs of the Apocalyps.
Addendum:
Boy do I hate to agree with Hybrid - but I'll give the man his credit -
I'm terrible at scrable and he's right about the impact of the written word.
I get too lazy or busy and don't proof read like I should.
Half my rants at Hybrid are just excersises in creative invective rather than the usual four letter words.
The other 1/2 are excersises in futility.
But it's the thought that counts.
Ed and Jeanne's
ZXelda 1981 280 ZXT: ZXena 1990 300 ZX
1941 Buick Special Sedanette (Betty)
1956 Dodge Royal (Dorothy)
1971 Buick Riviera (Rita)
1975 Ford F-150 Stepside (Fiona)
1992 Firebird (Frieda)
Post Edited (Oct 10, 5:42pm)
A:
>pompus sanctimonious embicilic egocentic hypocite
Wow! LOL I bet you rule at scrabble!
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
A:
norm and bubbles, thanks guys I'll get with him and we'll crank up the timing a bit. That should help a lot.
erzelda, and I thought I had a decent vocabulary...WOW.
______________________________________________________________________________
77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
"and a pompus sanctimonious embicilic egocentic hypocite like Hybrid is left to bully anyone on this site who doesn't agree with him?"
I doubt if erzelda would want to play Scrabble with me.
He misspelled 4 out of his 5 curses.
Sorry, low score looses.
Belittling people without good spelling is the same thing as modifying an engine without good tuning. The results are far weaker than intended. Even if you have all the parts in place, you loose under real competition. Car 2 was as simply not prepared correctly. Beyond that, nothing can be "proven" from the encounter.