General Chat
Q:
I found direction for the "performance restoration" for my Z. I am going to build my Z to SCCA Solo rules for the B Street Prepared class. This class is dominated by the (damned) Subaru WRX STi. Some rules and some questions about interpreting these rules:
15.1 D. Alternate computer control modules may be used whenever an equivalent change to the conventional system is allowed. For example, an alternate computer module control of ignition settings or fuel injecction is allowed. - Does this mean i can install, tune, and maximize my EFI with the use of MS?!
15.6 A. Any brake line, single or dual master cylinder...may be used. - Is the master cylinder from the 280ZX more effective for braking power than my stock 280Z unit (I believe this swap would also fall under the "updated/backdated" rule)?
15.10 C. Carburators, fuel injection, and intake manifolds are unrestricted. - Does this rule allow for the use of a custom fuel rail like Pallnet sells?
15.10 H. Exhaust manifolds and muffler systems are free, except they must be quiet and terminate behind the driver. - What do you think, free to install my MSA headers, 3-inch pipe and single glass-pack muffler?
15.10 K. The engine fan and fan shroud (unless it serves another purpose, e.g., as an alternator/generator mount) may be removed, modified, or replaced. - What is the deal with the fan shroud? In a recent post, there was mention of removing the fan shroud "in certain climates". What would be the drawbacks of removing the fan shroud in a climate like South Florida?
I know this post is kinda long but I have been drinking beer since I left work and thinking what upgrades (besides working on my driving skills) I can make to my Z to be competative in BSP and wipe the smirk off those Subaru-drivers faces.
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1978 280Z - I wish I had this much money in my 401K.
A:
Do you really think that a 3" exhaust, MSA headers and a single glass-pack would constitute as quiet?
Everything else would seem to me to fall within the rules posted.
As for your question of the fan shroud.... the shroud is there to force the air pulled from the fan to actually go through the radiator. without the shroud, the fan is much less effective at pulling air through the radiator when the car is not moving... but it also frees up a tiny bit of extra power caused by the drag of the shroud around the fan blades.
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1985 300ZX n/a
A:
With the exhaust noise, they will be monitoring the decibels at certain points on the course. You may want more than just a single glass pack.
Spend most of your money to get your Z to handle. And learn to drive the car costantly at it's limits. That's the only way your Z will beat those STIs on a Solo course, unless those guys suck. But if some kid I saw at one event can beat everybody in a go-cart, I'm sure you can put a shocked look on a STI driver's face.
3 Zs, 1 "Rusty", 4 more to go
A:
> I can make to my Z to be competative
> in BSP and wipe the smirk off those
> Subaru-drivers faces.
Not a chance. The early Z is no longer competitve at the National level in BSP (and hasn't been since the C4 Corvette was moved into BSP 5 years ago). With the upcoming move of all the E36 BMW 3 series into the class (from DSP) for 2007 you'll have lots of 2,550 lb. 285 hp BMWs running 285 and 315 width Kumho V710s.
Locally the early can be competitive in BSP with its success mostly depending on the driver.
- John
A:
I did insinuate that along with building my Z to BSP rules I need to "tighten up the nut behind the steerinng wheel"!
What does the zcar.com community think about MS, a cluch cylinder from a 280ZX, and a custom fule rail? As the rules read, do you think these are allowable modiffications?
Even though I have some stiff competition and the oldest automotive technology entered in my class, doesnt mean I couldnt be competative with the right car set-up and improved driving skills...thats why they race the race...
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1978 280Z - I wish I had this much money in my 401K.
A:
To me it looks like those modifications are allowable according to the language above. If you really want to be sure get a hold of a local club and talk to an inspector.
I totally agree with John. Nationally, forget about it. Locally is where you'll have some sort of a chance.
I talked to a guy who won trophies with his '78 Z. His modifications included suspension, drivetrain, and a Ford 302. After he quit racing he bought an ordinary WRX and he says it's superior to his modified car.
3 Zs, 1 "Rusty", 4 more to go
A:
Yep, I race BSP and locally get handed my butt by C4's, Mercedes slk's, and STI's. But, I would not trade with either one of those - love the Z!
'73 240Z w/all the smog stuff - thanks North Carolina!
"All the great men are dead, and I'm not feeling so well myself"
A:
> a cluch cylinder from a 280ZX,
I think you meant master cylinder. Its a legal swap but since you can't change the front calipers or the rear wheel cylinders you won't gain anything and will most likely make the braking system worse.
> doesnt mean I couldnt be competative
> with the right car set-up and improved driving skills..
Locally that's true. Nationally, you won't make the trophies and everyone will pat you on the back and say, "Nice car, nice try" as if it was your first at bat in a little league game.
I'm not trying to discourage you. Have at it and I know you'll have a lot of fun, especially in your local region. You'll probably win a few and have some trophies for your mantle. Just realize that at the National level the competition is pretty fierce and the underdog winning like the in the movies is very, very rare.
- John
A:
I dont have the time i need to commit for a national tour, I certainly do not posses the driver skill to compete on a national level (yet), and I certainly dont have the wife-approved budget, but I cant believe that SCCA would class a car that would have little to no chance of winning a race in that class.
Oh well, I dont want to beat this topic to death, thanks for the thoughtful responses as usual, I really appreciate it.
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1978 280Z - I wish I had this much money in my 401K.
A:
"I cant believe that SCCA would class a car that would have little to no chance of winning a race in that class."
HA! That is a good one!
They were competitive 15 years ago, but things changed, as they always do. It is as John says: Locally, Possible. National, Improbable.
Soon the Vette People will cry about the new cars coming into the class being "too competitive" due to horsepower available.
Such is the state of change that always exists.
There is a class for Yugos. Think about that...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Sure, I would rather have the skill and my Z set up to beat an STi or a C4 at an autocross than a Yugo (annd I would rather drive a Z than a Yugo TonyD!)...but at the same time, automotive engineering has come a long way in 30 years and cars should be classed to keep races competative.
One would think that the legndary Z car would be classed so it is still competative at a local AND a national level. And a Z-car owner should not show up at a local autocross for a "nice car but when it comes to a trophy you are SOL."
That being said, I am not dicouraged and weather I am going to trophy or not - I am going to have fun because my Z is a hoot to drive and fun to show off.
[drunken rant over, I need anotheer beer]
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1978 280Z - I wish I had this much money in my 401K.
A:
"cars should be classed to keep races competative"
That's why the 917 Porsches were banned in most every series they entered, they ended up finishing 1-10 at many events, and the loosers cried loud enough.
Southern Cross Rally in Australia was where "Godzilla" made it's debut, and the Skyline GTR was promptly banned in that class as well.
The loosers have come to dominate the classification of the cars by whining loud enough, rather than sanctioning bodies simply setting forth rules to meet, and letting the chips fall where they may.
The Yugo was an example of a car that is classed, but that NOBODY runs. It simply isn't competitive in the class where it resides, and the sanctioning body isn't going to make a "Spec Yugo" class, so with the prospect of never being competitive on a national level, many serious competitors simply bypass the vehicle. And since even locally it's not competitive, they are shunned there, as well.
The Z was nationally competitive in BSP 15 years ago, not one been in the running for a long time nationally, and most successful driver's that are serious about national level competition choose the ride that gets them the best platform for winning, not basing it on sentiment or persoanl attachment to the car.
I chose a GS130 (280ZX 2+2) to run at Bonneville. I hate the way it looks, but azerodynamically, the facts are the facts, and the classification of the vehicle is far more favorable than the GS30 chassis---much as I love the S30, I realize it will not be competitive at the level of competition I am at, no matter how much power I make it have so I must find a suitable platform if I want to win. I'm not out there for a Sunday Drive, I want a world record, and to do that the S30 won't do it. Competition dictates hard choices to be made, and be clear about it, sentiment doesn't win races, a competent platform competently prepared and competently driven does.
Skip any one of those three items, and failure is almost the inevitable result.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
The SCCA rulebook clearly and repeatedly states "These rules and classifications are meant to ensure you have a place to race your car, but they do not ensure you will be competitive."
-- Next Up: SCCA ITR 300ZX --
A:
The 240Z can be nationally competitive in the SM2 class and I just finished a bunch of work on one for a customer. Expect to spend about $35,000 to build the car. A nationally competitive BSP 240Z from the late 1990s cost about $15,000 to build 10 years ago.
Locally in the CalClub region almost all of the 240Z are running in the run-whatchya-brung CSM class. 6 to 8 cars compete against each other and they all have a great time. Except for the turbo Miata that kicks all their butts, its basically become a class owned by the 240Z.
- John
A:
That's what I run anymore, the SM2 class. Locally I can do good.
Matt
A:
Well john and matt can you give me some nints and pointers as to what you have done to your cars to compete in sm2 cause last month I got my ass handed to me again in sm2. I am running this weekend and the following weekend. I have original carbs, headers, koni shocks, eibach springs, urethane bushings, larger sway bars, and a cam. Car handles good and seems to be fast to me. I am very good at not hitting cones and not getting any dnfs or points against me but the only thing I can see is that they are more powerful cars and they are running slicks and I have falkens(new). What have you guys done to your cars? thanks in advance.
Mark
71 240z yellow and rusting slowly but with style
Laterzzz
A:
> Well john and matt can you give
> me some nints and pointers as
> to what you have done to
> your cars to compete in sm2
325+ horsepower, 2300 lbs (or whatever the min weight is), 285/30-18 Kumho V710s, double adjustalbe shocks of some kind, and lots of seat and tuning time.
- John
A:
What John said! Of course I don't have that much but I do well with a 78 that weighs 2490 lbs, 243 rwhp, illuminas, 200/225lbs springs, all urethane or heim joints, on slicks.
Good tires alone can shave a few seconds depending on how long the track is of course. But tires and seat time will gain you the most.
Matt
A:
Yes, SM2 has gotten a LOT of Z's back out to the Auto-X courses this past year.
Curious how being able to be nationally competitive, and have fairly lax rules on engines gets people interested all over again, huh?
For the life of me I couldn't remember that class. I figured you would give it up eventually, John!
LOL
Art's car was looking good, I saw the photos of the rockers and 1/4 repairs last week when I stopped by his shop.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
> Art's car was looking good, I saw
> the photos of the rockers and 1/4
> repairs last week when I stopped by his shop.
What's funny is that I had to patch the rocker panels because they were supposedly NLA from MSA and Tabco. The week Art picks up the car from me MSA called and said my rockers were in! Go figure.
- John