General Chat
Q:
Mazda expects to recall RX-8s
Automaker: Engines failing vacuum test must be replaced
Mark Rechtin | | Automotive News / August 21, 2006 - 6:00 am
MONTEREY, Calif. -- After suffering a black eye from disclosing that it won't count RX-8 owners' opinions in its internal customer-satisfaction scores, Mazda says it may have to replace the engines in many of its flagship sports cars.
The voluntary recall of all 2004 and 2005 vehicles, and some 2006s, is expected to be announced this week or next. It involves damage to the catalyst resulting from oil leaks in the RX-8's rotary engine.
Any engine that does not pass a vacuum test must be replaced, said Robert Davis, head of product development and quality at Mazda North American Operations.
Engines prone to failing the test are mostly in hot climates and use synthetic oils.
Mazda also will check each RX-8's battery and starter, which tend to fail in cold climates.
"We're going to give these cars the white-glove treatment," Davis said. "We would rather replace the engine than have the dealer crack them open."
Davis would not disclose the projected failure rate of the engines or the cost to replace them.
Mazda has a remanufacturing center in North Carolina that will rebuild faulty engines and return them to service.
The recall comes after a video Webcast by two dealers who attended the July 11-13 National Dealer Advisory Council meetings in Newport Beach, Calif., was leaked on the Internet.
In the video, dealers said problems with the RX-8 were unfairly lowering Mazda customer-satisfaction scores.
Mazda informed the dealers that RX-8 owners would continue to be surveyed, but that the responses would not factor into dealer customer-satisfaction scores.
Mazda has issued service bulletins on such trouble spots as squeaky brakes and engine flooding.
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
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sad... :<
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Please check out Thanks!
"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant, excepting Alice"
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I've always wondered what the pros and cons of rotary ownership were as I've heard the engines are only good for a little over 100K miles before the heat they generate wears out seals etc.
Way to go corporate Mazda, discount owner surveys from lines having problems...jack@$$es!
Heavily medicated for your protection.
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60 percent of the time...they work ALL the time.
82 280zx turbo 5 speed
86 300zx NA 5 spd
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mazdas suck they dont have one good car, rotarys? i dont even consider them engines
73' 240z: F54 4.2L, OS Giken LY DOHC Crossflow head, 17:3comp.ratio, N33, Tripple SU's, T10 Hybrid Draw-Through TT @ 47pds, Roots&Centrifugal Type supercharger, 3-2-1 headers, Centerforce 4 clutch, 6oz flywheel, R300 differential, Super-Hicas
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Guess I won't be getting an RX-8 now. I was contemplating it too.
1972 240Z always in progress
***WARNING*** MY POSTS MAY CONTAIN SARCASM
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Sometimes being different is just a bad idea!!
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12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
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I like the unique sound they make, the fun of driving, and the cosmetic is alright.
Other than that, they're pretty weak.
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1975 280Z (Stock)
303 Emerald Green
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not surprising - the rx-8 has been a dissappintment all around- probably why they are looking into bringing the Rx-7 back:
http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied_vehicles/112_2007fvf/mercedes_benz_mitsubishi_nissan.html
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=3346
http://savetheseven.rotarynews.com/
...
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My lawn tractor has more torque!
81 280zxt 5 speed rusty----- junked
81 280na 5 speed smokes
81 280na 2+2 green ------sold!!
77 280z 2+2 4 speed 76k miles 1 owner
02 jeep grand cherokee limited v8----very fast!
06 chevy colarado crew cab----very slow
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My rotory makes more torque than HP... It's not a Wankle design though...
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Please check out Thanks!
"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant, excepting Alice"
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Unless they fix the powerplant, building a new 7 won't do them any good. At least they tried to go a little retro on the design.
Heavily medicated for your protection.
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i've got a bottle of mountain dew with more displacement than that mazda, hahahahahahahaha
82 NA 5 spd
77 4 spd
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Hilarious! To be technical about it, they really need to do that with every RX every built! The RX7 aint much better, I got a friend with one and he's constantly b!tching about how much it breaks down lol
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
Post Edited (Aug 21, 4:46pm)
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Actually the success of the RX-8 was supposed to determine if the RX-7 would be released. First they wanted to see if there was a market for sports cars, which I'm sure by now they see there is. Second they wanted to see how a rotary would fair in the publics eye and if people would buy the RX-8. Looks like that is failing. I'll be surprised if the RX-7 does come out any time soon.
1977 280z: Intake, exhaust, high flow cat, header, euro damper, cam, MSD, adj. FPR, 3.7 lsd, F+R sway+strut bars, 2580lbs
1984 300zx: intake, exhuast, high flow cat, headers, JWT ECU, F+R sway bars, F strut bar
06 WRX TR
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I just read that whole article again...
>Engines prone to failing the test are mostly in hot climates and use synthetic oils.
>Mazda also will check each RX-8's battery and starter, which tend to fail in cold climates.
LOL!! So the area you live in better have mild to warm weather for them to work? Hahaha, that's just ridiculous....
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
Post Edited (Aug 21, 4:50pm)
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"We're going to give these cars the white-glove treatment," Davis said. "We would rather replace the engine than have the dealer crack them open."
And they dont even trust their own qualified dealerships to fix them? The insanity continues... Wtf were Mazda thinking?
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
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To me it sound like Mazda is backing up their cars, and yet all I see here is bitching about them.
And yes, I would rather have an OEM nissan engine in my car than one rebuilt by the dealer.
Currently own:
1990 2+2(For sale soon)
1991 TT(parts for sale)
1993 NA(parts for sale)
1993 Convertible(Converted TT)
1996 TT(with 9,124 miles on it)
"When you do things right people cant really tell that you've done anything at all."
l
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agreed.. sounds like mazda is handling this very well.
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'05 350Z Chrome Silver Touring
'73 240Z
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You serious? lol! Yeah replacing entire engines because the problem is unfixable by their qualified dealership mechanics is handling it real well! No doubt getting a brand new engine is better than having it rebuilt, but the fact that it has to be done in the first place is outrageous... Did they even test these things before they released them to the general public? Makes you wonder!
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
Post Edited (Aug 21, 6:15pm)
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same could be said for Nissan with the 350z tire feathering problem. these things happen. it's how they're fixed that matters.
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'05 350Z Chrome Silver Touring
'73 240Z
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Tyre/suspension issue vs entire engine swap? Hmmm, some how I dont think that's quite the same lol
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
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sure it is. at least engines can be replaced. tire feathering still isn't corrected on some Zs.
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'05 350Z Chrome Silver Touring
'73 240Z
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isnt mazda owned by ford??
88 300zx shiro...11k miles
88 300zx shiro...48k miles
83 280zxt full restoration...blk and gold
97 hyundai accent gt..bought new. currently 130k and still running strong
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You guys crack me up. As an owner, I'd MUCH rather get a new engine in a day or so than have my car spread all over the dealership for a week while they rebuild a faulty engine — wouldn't you? I think this makes much more sense for the dealers, too, as it removes a huge variable (rebuilder's skill and speed) — not to mention a huge chunk of time — from the equation: in with the new, out with the old, send it off and forget it. NEXT!
Mazda may not be Toyota or Nissan in terms of reliability, but they've been making quality vehicles for a long time and they are still lightyears better in reliability and build quality than anything to come out of Detroit. And in answer to Z Doctor, technically, from what I read, Mazda is "partly" owned by Ford. Whatever that means.
And the rotary engine is a marvel of engineering. Do you know it only has like 3 or 4 moving parts and NO VALVES? If you really look at these things (http://www.keveney.com/Wankel.html for a neat animated lesson), you can’t help but think piston engines are the dinosaurs, not rotaries. Okay, maybe they don't have the same power, torque, etc. But put 100+ years of development and competition behind a rotary that the piston engine has had (instead of 30 years in the auto industry by one company, Mazda) and I’m guessing pistons would be in the same section of the Smithsonian as sextants, slide rules and buggy whips.
'76 280Z driver, '75 parts car
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Mazda will make this right, people will be cautious, sales willl drop, a new model will come out, and things will be right again, if in fewer numbers.
Post Edited (Aug 21, 11:57pm)
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I can vouch for the longevity of a Mazda Rotary, my cousin's 84 GSL-SE has over 350,000kms on it. Well over the useful life of the car, but it still does high rpm shifts on the on-ramps.
Anyway, I am NOT suprised at all by these findings as:
#1 Mazda rotarys run very hot compared to regular pushrod engines.
#2 "Engines prone to failing the test are mostly in hot climates" need I say more.
In all actuality, these engines are supposed to get a 'bit' of oil into the intake during cranking and initial start. That being said, I would rather have a slow (controlable) oil leak into the combustion chamber and remove the catalyst, than have no oil at all.
I would then sell the catalytic converter to the "gold diggers" looking for platinum, etc in those things.
DIY or DIE
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the use of synthetic oil.
Does Mazda recommend it or has the synthetic parade run over the rotary?
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There "flagship sports car" That is just plain sad if that's your flagship.
Vacumn problems on a rotary.. your kidding!
I enjoyed my RX7 turbo's but only long enough to get rid of them before they needed another rebuild. This includes a Petit Racing built 1.3B race ported, rotors clearanced, 3mm apex seals, larger oil cooler, 4 larger injectors of the same size, greddy profec B, full 3" off road exhaust, bearing turbo pushing 26lbs.
It made plenty of torque, at a little over 400 ft/lbs and the same in hp.
I agree it's a very simple motor that SHOULD be good but it just hasn't been developed enough to be economically feasible partially due to it's shorter than average life span and the lack of qualified mechanics to work on them. Most Mazda dealerships don't even want to touch them.
Matt
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Yawn....
Those problems are so minor I can't believe that Mazda is actually replacing the engine. Come on, running a sports car engine hard and hot with synthetic and it slings a little oil? SHOCKING! battery and starter tend to fail in cold climates? UNBELIEVEABLE!
Funny how EPA/Emmissions can kill interesting technologies. I'm impressed that Mazda could actualy meet emissions in the first place with a rotary.
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I hope the owners know they are probably NOT getting new engines. These engines will be rebuilds from a factory authoized remanufacturer. I've been to one of these places for transmissions and they are a bit scary. You get all kinds of dealer removed transmissions and they go to the rebuilder who disassembles them and throws the parts into bins. The parts are sorted into "in spec" and "not in spec". The in spec parts are then reassembled into "new" transmissions. That would be the old housings that have been cleaned. So, you could get one planetary set with 100,00 miles and one set with 30,000 miles in the same transmission as long as they didn't find any visible damage to the gears (no telling what the needle bearings look like for the planets). The transmisions are then painted to identify them as "reman" and sent back to dealers to use as warranty replacements. A coworker had his transmission replaced in his Impala at 25,000 miles. He got a nice "new" gray painted transmission. This indicates a "reman", not a new production transmission. The same will be true for the Mazda Engines. They will NOT just throw away all those engines. They will be sent to be remanufactured and used again as the warranty replacements. As long as the problem is fixed, it shouldn't matter, but it's still not a NEW engine....
1972 240Z 4-speed, header, 3.54 R200, Crane XR-3000 Ignition, 280Z tach, Tokico Blue Struts, Suspension Tech Springs, Poly Bushings. Visit me at my website for your custom EFI & restored Datsun parts
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Yep.
Much simpler to buy a new catalytic converter and keep going than to get a reman engine (IMHO). From what I read, the only thing was a little oil killing the CAT so it failed emissions. For some reason I distrust Anerican techs swapping out a factory engine without causing other problems.
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I liked the lines of the FB but not so much after that. Mazda's doing the minimum they can do and still have some semblance of trust with their customers.
It's easy to bash them, but would Nissan have done it any differently?
Heavily medicated for your protection.
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Not really a customer relations issue at all. The real reason for the eng. replacement is Fedl. emissions standards that require the car co. to stand behind the emissions sys. for 5yrs./50K miles. Mazda could either recall all the cars and scrap them and repay the buyers or they could fix the engines - which is obviously cheaper, which is what all this is about. If not for the emissions deal, the car owners would have gotten the (rotary) shaft. Just wait until all these cars are out of the 5yr./50K miles range and the engines fail again - guess what's gonna happen then.
Rusty but running.
Polish cell phone and two tubes of Aluma-seal.
And, now we are historic.
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Heh...I had a 2003.5 Mazda Protege 5. Well treated, 4000 mile oil changes, washed regularly, serviced more frequently than required.
Still threw a rod bearing at 31K miles.
They had to throw in a new short-block. Took 2 weeks just to get the engine here!
IMO, Mazda, ya better make sure your NORMAL engines work, before you go playing with the wacky stuff!
T