Interior Exterior
Q:
The FF car looks a little top-heavy with a bulky wing on top and the small factory diffuser.
I just saw the FF car yesterday at SEMA and it appears they installed the CF rear diffuser as well as the rear spoiler. It does have the front splitter but it may do wheelies now?
A:
Personally, I think the PB wing looks freakin' cool. As long as it doesn't fly off the back of the car and take out an innocent person, I'm all for someone buying the wing for whatever reason they have.
I have a question for all the armchair analysts here, if the Exige wing makes 50# downforce at 100mph, how much downforce could the PB wing possibly make? It appears to be a direct copy of the Exige wing, close enough to say it won't make more meaningful downforce than the one on the Exige. Is that amount of downforce so much to drastically effect front end stability with or without front aero treatments? I am sure many here have seen cars in races with huge wings that create REAL downforce (much more than 50# at 100mph). Sometimes, one of these cars will competitively finish the race with the front end of the car ripped off. How can this happen?!?
Another point, it seems to me that Ragnorak is a re-seller, so why doesn't one of the ever-so-interested parties email PB Racing for specifics on the design? I can't imagine someone emailing Foot Locker for specifics on the elastomers used in a pair of Nike running shoes. (insert a million better analogies here)
It is also clear that the majority of the comments made by the armchair analysts in this thread (and on this site, in general) have no structural design, stress analysis, aerodynamic or general mechanical engineering expertise. If you have no expertise in an area, why post if it is only speculation? Unless of course, you truly believe you are an expert because you read a website about something called "fatigue", "stress" or "load" and thought the easy part was the calculations. This behavior is scary because some here have zero technical background and think these Elisetalk experts are posting truthful, logical and factual information.
The "Devil's Advocate with misleading information" behavior has done a disservice to the Elisetalk community. Do you realize that you are messing with someones livelyhood by dragging product developers and retailers through the trenches when you have few valid concerns and unlimited speculation? If this behavior persists, no one will risk the abuse to develop parts for our cool little cars. The more people we have developing parts, the more good parts we will have available in a few years time. Why ruin this possiblity? Here's my methodology, if I'm not sure, I state I am not sure and look for answers from experts or I STFU.
For instance, I will single out these statements for being responsible for making anyone who reads it dumber.
Also2...wings that give a car say 50 pounds of downforce may not provide that benefit to the car through the pedestals. Some of the effect might be taking place at the normal bodywork. And there is also the drag component which would place a rearward load on the car. Also3...there may also be some effect on the ability of the engine cover vents to move air through them in the desired manner. This stuff is interrelated.
Why post this when it is all speculation? The enormity of your posts make rebuttal next to impossible. In particular, I can't even begin to explain how wrong your first statements are regarding the load transfer into the bodywork. If you have done a single free body diagram in your life, you would understand why it is wrong. Who here wants to learn about free body diagrams to understand about their wing? No one! But, it is an important part of engineering that must be used for the explanation. Hence the catch 22 and in the end, it's just not worth the effort to disagree with a 4000 post expert who finds the time to write numerous voluminous posts per day and argue minuscule points of no relevance to ad nauseum.
I apologize for this long post, but I have to get one more thing to get off my chest. Regarding a reoccurring problem when discussing mods to any Lotus and directly addressing this wing issue: Design intention is only about feelings and has no technical merit what so ever. It is meaningless. Capability is about facts. For instance, the designer of the Elise engine cover may not have intended it to incorporate a wing, but it along with the surrounding structure can easily be 100% capable of withstanding the loads imparted by a PB wing.
I am anxious to see a PB wing in person and would be happy to post recommendations on mounting.
Signed,
Gary Milcheck
BSME, 10 years professional experience
Specializing in Structural Design and Analysis
Resume available upon request
A:
Dave,
Thank you for the PM. I will be glad to repost the pictures of ways to increase the stability of the PB Racing Elise wing. You are right. I did remove the pictures when the BS storm trashing wings by the usual suspects broke out. I enjoy sharing and learning tech tips on ET and will continue to do so. In my opinion, innovation by car owners to improve on-track performance often leads to improvements of the breed which are subsequently introduced by the manufacturer.
The attached pictures show the rubber bumpers I installed to stabilize the wing. The pin attaches to the vertical bulkhead and replaces the heavy stock latch to make the lid, body and chassis function as one unit. I have been to two HPDE weekends since installing the wing. The wing has survived 130 mph speeds. Subjectively the Elise is far more stable at high speed since the wing and splitter were installed. I will be track testing the Elise's performance with my new Garrett turbo in about three weeks. Stay tuned.
A:
Excellent work, Luc. I was concerned about the strength and stability the stock lock mechanism would provide, as the geometry of the wing and mounts would cause a pulling force up on the lock.
If engine cover flex becomes a problem at higher speeds, it would be simple to bond in a stiffening doubler on the underside of the lid to tie in the mount points to your hitch pin. If stiffening is even further needed it could be possible to add an additional pair of hitch pins, one left and right of center.
Good luck and keep us posted!
A:
Personally...Gary Milcheck
BSME, 10 years professional experience
Specializing in Structural Design and Analysis
Resume available upon request
Hello Gary,
That is a great post but I think if these guys are being unfairly savaged it is up to them to come forward and rebut what is being said...
I posted this the other day and I have yet to see a response.
I know first hand that Lotus uses wind tunnels to design these cars. I have yet to hear of 3rd party guys doing anything along those lines...Brett or anyone else for that matter, please let me know if I am mistaken
I am feeling very jet lagged now so I will leave it at that.
A:
Hi Patricko, and welcome back.
Everyone needs to keep in mind that the reseller has made no specific claims. As far as your question goes, why not email PBRacing? By asking more than once, you obviously are interested in the answer.
A:
quote:
"Why is it that everyone is so worried about the rules it's your car do what you want , get out of the dam parking lot and find a canyon and spank a vet or evo....Have you ever heard of group B. Do what makes you happy. Why follow when you know you have the means to lead. Change your ride height wheel size add a wing do what you want it's your car.......I've changed crap the second I got home.... To quote a friend " Drive it like you stole it"....tech tips are great rules suck....."
very simple answer: some people that would consider purchasing these after market items (like i previously considered) don't know about these important issues. so many here are trying to give them more information so they can make a more educated decision. no one is saying don't do it (and nor should they), only providing additional information.
i like the look of the elise wing made by the italians a lot, and their splitter, but if it's bad for the car i love and throws its design at high speeds off then i'm not going to risk it.
A:
There's quite a width difference amongst some of these products... The yellow car's wing is as wide as the pedestals of the blue car's wing. Wing-Bling?
A:
I think the wings look great...but I think if you buy one at this point without any wind tunnel testing provided, you just have to be aware you are buying it mainly for looks, with the effects on aerodynamics and stability as an unknown. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know that going in....
A:
I think the wings look great...but I think if you buy one at this point without any wind tunnel testing provided, you just have to be aware you are buying it mainly for looks, with the effects on aerodynamics and stability as an unknown. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know that going in....
Wing-bling is fine...but sorta clashes with the bare bones, function above all else concept of the car. I wonder if the wingers will also tend to have large stereos and subs in their cars too? All good fun. I'd make the stuff quickly removeable if you'd like to do any hipo events.
Right in the owner's manual of so-equipped M3s are specific front splitter and rear wing settings. All were wind tunnel tested. All speed up the car and provide benefit and function. Basically there are three main choices, and you use certain front settings with certain rear settings. None of these settings are unsafe or unbalanced. They just vary in the degree of effect, and at all times the car remains stable. The high or "Nurburgring" setting has the most downforce while the lowest or "Monza" setting has reduced downforce but it's lower drag allowed more top speed for venues where that matters. The car also had the angle of the rear window made less steep so that air can reach the wing in a useful state so that a productive result is possible. And the height of the trunk lid was raised. Things like this were done because the parts were to be used on a production car which had not been designed to use a wing and splitter. So more than just bolting on some bling was required. Done right, helps the car, looks good too. Lotus has done the same thing with the Exige, and note that they did more than just plopping on some aero bits. Look at the latest EVOs...with the shark fins at the back of the roo..they allow the air to reach the rear spoiler in a more useful state. If we could see the airflow effects with our eyes it would be easier to understand.
Maybe these aftermarket wing suppliers could perform some testing to come out with a product that not only looks good, but helps the car as much as possible without causing harm. Coordinated front and rear settings would make sense too, ala BMW. A vendor that did this sort of thing might see some benefit, and so might the customers.
Maybe some of this was already done? Well if the stuff is for sale in Germany then it had to be TUV approved for road use, which means that stuff like this would have been tested and approved. There may be some TUV approved aero stuff for the Elise, I am not sure though. On some TUV approved spoilers for a different BMW, I was provide with drag and downforce results and reccommened settings. And you could not buy just a front or a rear piece, you had to buy both so that the car remained balanced on the road at higher speeds.
The pics below show the adjustable elements on an E30 M3, which are in black. They are extended about 3/4 in the shots.
A:
There's quite a width difference amongst some of these products... The yellow car's wing is as wide as the pedestals of the blue car's wing. Wing- Bling?
Those who can do. Those who can't teach and Those that post
4,650 just ######## preach ......Take time off from time from knowing all and drive your car like you mean it............check out the Nitron Shocks Elise they might just know something about handling..
A:
Those who can do. Those who can't teach and Those that post
4,650 just ######## preach ......Take time off from time from knowing all and drive your car like you mean it............check out the Nitron Shocks Elise they might just know something about handling..
of all the preachers on this board i don't think stan is one of them. so you are probably pointing your finger at the wrong person, but you're allowed to think/post what you want.
that being said, when you say drive your car like you mean it you could be putting people that don't know about the downforce at risk. if you come over a hill and catch air at 100+ mph, like some of us do, and you have an aftermarket wing, you could lose control of the car more so than without the wing. that is the point some of us are making. just making people aware of the downforce issue. i like the italian wing (not the other one) but want to make sure they understand they could lose control of the car under certain high speed circumstances. i would guess a front spoiler would balance the rear one, so as stan said: they should be sold together, not separately.
A:
Dave,
Thank you for the PM. I will be glad to repost the pictures of ways to increase the stability of the PB Racing Elise wing. You are right.
Hey Luc,
Thanks for posting these again...nice work. Looks like I now have a Saturday project. Can you tell me where you picked up the pin assy? So far, I'm still very satisified with the wing, and most comments are complementary. I've donned my BS storm suit, so far, no leaks. Take care.
A:
of all the preachers on this board i don't think stan is one of them. so you are probably pointing your finger at the wrong person, but you're allowed to think/post what you want.
Hahaha! Ignorance is truly bliss!
A:
of all the preachers on this board i don't think stan is one of them. so you are probably pointing your finger at the wrong person, but you're allowed to think/post what you want.
that being said, when you say drive your car like you mean it you could be putting people that don't know about the downforce at risk. if you come over a hill and catch air at 100+ mph, like some of us do, and you have an aftermarket wing, you could lose control of the car more so than without the wing. that is the point some of us are making. just making people aware of the downforce issue. i like the italian wing (not the other one) but want to make sure they understand they could lose control of the car under certain high speed circumstances. i would guess a front spoiler would balance the rear one, so as stan said: they should be sold together, not separately.
If you come over a hill at+ 100 and get real air not just un weighting you really do need a wing for downforce and proper suspension to compensate for your compression.....Nitron thinks so..so do I. By the way I've had my share of air time in a few cars myself Lancia Stratos, MG Metro 6R4 rally X, RS200E 740hp.Audi Sport Quattro. All had rear wings standard or added. Stratos being closest to the Elise in size,balance and power and no problem getting big air. after adding a larger wing.....So add a wing and if it feels unbalanced to you add a chin spoiler...You wont know untill you "get air at 100+"....I'd bet you won't do that again without a proper setup.......NEVER DRIVE STOCK....PS...If your geting air in the canyons enjoy your flight, don't forget to put your snack tray up before landing.....
A:
For the guys needing more information regarding the wing, if wind tunnel testing was done, what the downforce numbers are etc, I have emailed Stefano at PB Racing about the details. As soon as I hear back from him I will post the information here in this thread. Thanks guys.
A:
Any aerodynamic device, front or rear that is not adjustable is just bling.
That's OK, bling is cool. Just don't be thinking that any of these things will bolt on with a few washers and give you an improvement in handling. Most likely they will just f$#& it up at speeds that you will rarely attain.
A:
It is also clear that the majority of the comments made by the armchair analysts in this thread (and on this site, in general) have no structural design, stress analysis, aerodynamic or general mechanical engineering expertise. If you have no expertise in an area, why post if it is only speculation? Unless of course, you truly believe you are an expert because you read a website about something called "fatigue", "stress" or "load" and thought the easy part was the calculations. This behavior is scary because some here have zero technical background and think these Elisetalk experts are posting truthful, logical and factual information.
Just maybe the "armchair analysts" are "experts". I know that Stan is an engineer. My degree is in Aerospace Engineering, and at first I specialized in structures. I've worked on everything from stress analysis of nuclear reactors to flight trajectory simulations of the Space Shuttle, with a few missiles and and a couple of friends radically designed hang gliders ("rigid wing" bi-plane) thrown in.
I have questioned the aerodynamics. People compare the wing to the one on the Exige, and since it works on the Exige, it must work the same on the Elise. Probably not. The wings may look similar, but I doubt that they have exactly the same airfoil shape. Even if they do, the rest of the car is different, so the results would be different. Additionally the rear wing on the Exige is part of the aero package that includes the front splitter. Without out one, the results are not going to be the same. Even if the rear wing does make the same downforce in the rear, that could be an actual problem without the corresponding increase in downforce in the front.
We've also questioned that structural mounting of the wing. I don't recommend that you sit on the rear clam of the Elise, the body is not designed for it. Similarly, it's not designed to support a wing bolted to the body (or the engine lid). When Lotus does it, they provide re-enforcements - things are designed to support the loads. When we have pointed this out, and asked questions, all we get is evasive answers.
Similar to the questions raised about the Throttle Body.
Similar to the questions raised about the LED tail lights.
When Bret is "selling" things he provide lots of info. When details are questioned, he becomes evasive. Then the "armchair enthusiasts" all rush to his defense. Stan and I have just asked for additional information. We've pointed out potential problems - that's it.
A:
Those who can do. Those who can't teach and Those that post 4,650 just ######## preach ......Take time off from time from knowing all and drive your car like you mean it............check out the Nitron Shocks Elise they might just know something about handling..
Look, if you don't like my posts or whatever, fine. This is not my site, I am not affiliated with it, and I do not sell anything here. I have a great deal of car experience of different kinds and over a long period of time. I've done all sorts of car projects, although my Elise is the most stock car I've ever had, since I run it in a stock class. I have multiple technical degrees and have taught myself just tons of other stuff. If you don't like to hear what some have posted here feel free to research the particular topic at hand or listen to others or figure it out for yourself. In this case aerodynamic add ons and how they affect a car. There is lots of relevant material out there for your perusal and trials.
Much of this stuff is basic to ANY car. Such as the E30 M3 example I provided. I have one and it is a wonderful driving machine, hard core like the Elise. It's aero stuff works, works well, and is safe, won't break off needs no design effort to install, etc.
Brett says that he'll look into the information the Elise wing designer / mfg may have. It may very well be along the lines of what others have requested. Maybe the results are pretty good, if they are the parts must be used in the exactly the same way they were designed for and tested. That is not possible right now since Brett does not have this information and it may or may not exist. In the mean time things like: "This carbon fiber piece is the ultimate in style and function" are posted about it on the sales site. Well let's hear about the function some more. It also seems like some are designing, building, and installing reinforcing mounts and accomodations for the part. Maybe things like that could come with the part? From his site it looks like at least two wings are offered...how about more information on each?
Drive my car like I mean it? I do all the time..I've got 27,000 miles on it and about 2-4 autocrosses a month since I got it (when it's not Winter). First one = 4 days after I got it, had to run in 2nd / 3rd gear to keep the Rs down. In the last month or so codriving with National Champ drivers in my Elise, I was 0.4 seconds slower than one, and 0.3 seconds behind the other. How about you?
Nitron shocks. Who do you think worked closely with Ohlins in developing their Federal Elise shocks? And the SCCA version of it? The shocks that various vendors are now selling? Right...me, way back last year and early this year. I've been involved with several other products now sold for the car, or was copied. Anyone running BMW wheels bolts, you're welcome. I found the K&N air filter that fit the car through trial and error, not by clicking to order one. Oil filter cross references. ABS Ice mode data some are now using. Detailing mods. Pedal mods that work and cost nothing, some of which are now in the Service Manual. Lots, and lots of other actual hands on examples. Your turn.
A:
Just maybe the "armchair analysts" are "experts". I know that Stan is an engineer. My degree is in Aerospace Engineering, and at first I specialized in structures. I've worked on everything from stress analysis of nuclear reactors to flight trajectory simulations of the Space Shuttle, with a few missiles and and a couple of friends radically designed hang gliders ("rigid wing" bi-plane) thrown in.
I have questioned the aerodynamics. People compare the wing to the one on the Exige, and since it works on the Exige, it must work the same on the Elise. Probably not. The wings may look similar, but I doubt that they have exactly the same airfoil shape. Even if they do, the rest of the car is different, so the results would be different. Additionally the rear wing on the Exige is part of the aero package that includes the front splitter. Without out one, the results are not going to be the same. Even if the rear wing does make the same downforce in the rear, that could be an actual problem without the corresponding increase in downforce in the front.
We've also questioned that structural mounting of the wing. I don't recommend that you sit on the rear clam of the Elise, the body is not designed for it. Similarly, it's not designed to support a wing bolted to the body (or the engine lid). When Lotus does it, they provide re-enforcements - things are designed to support the loads. When we have pointed this out, and asked questions, all we get is evasive answers.
Similar to the questions raised about the Throttle Body.
Similar to the questions raised about the LED tail lights.
When Bret is "selling" things he provide lots of info. When details are questions, he becomes evasive. Then the "armchair enthusiasts" all rush to his defense. Stan and I have just asked for additional information. We've pointed out potential problems - that's it.
I have not evaded any questions regarding the products I sell Tim. As you can read a few posts back I have contacted PB Racing, the manufacturer of the wing that I sell for specific details of downforce, drag etc to answer some of the questions on this forum. I also do not think that this wing would be ideal for the serious hard core racer looking for maximum downforce, and more importantly adjustability of the wing which is crucial when going from track to track.
I have answered the posts on the LED's as well as the throttle body to the best of my ability? I just posted in the throttle body thread that I will be releasing the data asked for in the coming week or so. No evasion going on here Tim. I am trying to run a small business however, based on the products I make and also resell. I do try to get to every thread on this board, time allowing about my parts.
I also do not have a staff of 100 to run around and perform every single test that is brought up on this forum. Where possible I perform the tests required, as I am about to do with the throttle body. I have no way currently of testing the PB Racing wing in a wind tunnel, or any of my aero products for that matter. If any kind member of this forum has access to a wind tunnel please send me a pm. Thanks guys.