Interior Exterior
Q:
i am getting ready to install a 6pt harness and am debating removing the stock belts altogether. this is what lotus advises when using the seat mounting point for lapbelts, which is what i plan to do (for the time being anyway). my major concern is severe neck or head injury in a collision due to the lack of give in the harness vis a vis the stock belts. any thoughts?
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I think you may well have a problem without a hans device being used.
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i have a Schroth with the red push button release. I believe it's DOT approved.
They use an anti submarine feature that MAY give a bit before everthing restrains you. Another thought, I wonder what an insurance company might do in the event you used something aftermarket and got injured. Sort of like not wearing your seatbelt. Just a thought.
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For street use normal 4 point belts are fine, i think
As long as you are driving more or less responsibly!
At least i use 4 points... feels a lot safer then normal belt. In fact i feel discomfortable while driving with normal belts.
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I had a pair of Schroth belts (4 point ASMs) installed for track days and left the factory belts in place. I considered removing the factory belts but am now glad I kept them.
Have you tried reaching over to roll up the passenger window, paying toll or a parking attendant, or doing a drive through window with a harness on? Won't happen unless you unbuckle!
How about a passenger...want to wait for the harnesses to be adjusted before a drive?
I cannot comment about your head or back injury concerns, though my recollection is that Schroth recommends a Hans device for five and six point belts.
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LOD mechanic said to leave them in. I am glad I did.
My Schroth harness says in small print "Not compliant with HANS or similar device". I wear a HANS. Don't believe everything you read.
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i grabbed this somewhere on ET not sure where:
Below is a posting from Nick Adams of Lotus ...
The seat belt mounts on the Elise meet the legal requirements for strength and as such are judged to be satisfactory. We supply kits to fit four point harnesses to all of our Elise based cars and these have also been tested and approved for use on the road by the relevant authorities. We cannot recommend using any other harness or mounting arrangement as we have not tested it and cannot state that it will meet the legal requirements or that it will offer adequate protection in the event of an accident. We specifically DO NOT recommend retaining the three point harness when fitting a four point system as we have seen examples of belt mounting failures on non-Lotus approved installations where the additional torque applied to the mount in impact as a result of the greater mount offset resulted in a direct stress failure. To achieve a safe installation all but the tallest drivers will need to fit seats with harness slots to get an acceptable belt run over the shoulders, in most cases the wider "wings" on these seats then prevent a three point harness sitting correctly across the torso. A badly fitting seat belt is potentially lethal, so don't take chances.
to me this says if you are putting in a harness, the stock belts have got to go.
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I think you should contact me about this top notch harness pad set i am selling
Fishguy
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LOD mechanic said to leave them in. I am glad I did.
My Schroth harness says in small print "Not compliant with HANS or similar device". I wear a HANS. Don't believe everything you read.
any pictures? Can you elaborate?
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Excerpt from the Schroth installation manual available on-line (page 7), about using a Hans device with their 4-point anti-submarine technology harnesses (powerbookguy's 6-point set-up is good to go):
Models with SCHROTH asm® Safety System
The asm® System
asm® is the acronym for anti-submarining [submarining = sliding underneath the lap belt during a frontal impact]. This phenomenon is likely to occur in a 4-point harness belt, and is significantly reduced by the patented asm® safety system. Therefore, all SCHROTH racing harnesses
sold as 4-point harnesses, and likely to be used as such, are equipped with the asm® system. It consists of an energy converter located in the inboard shoulder belt. As a result, make sure you have purchased left and/or right harnesses, depending upon which side you want to install the harness.
Since every accident is different, always keep in mind that PROFI-asm® harness belts, just like other racing harnesses, cannot guarantee against severe injuries, death and other risks during an accident. Recently developed head and neck supports or restraints, however, allow further reduction of head deceleration and neck forces. The SCHROTH asm® safety system cannot substitute for the effectiveness of e.g. a HANS®. The asm® system should never be used with such devices since it provides for a slight rotation of the upper body as well as some shoulder belt slack which are not wanted in conjunction with any head and neck restraints.
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Adam's reply does say that correct seats - not stock Elise seats - are needed for racing harnesses.
"Below is a posting from Nick Adams of Lotus ...
The seat belt mounts on the Elise meet the legal requirements for strength and as such are judged to be satisfactory. We supply kits to fit four point harnesses to all of our Elise based cars and these have also been tested and approved for use on the road by the relevant authorities. We cannot recommend using any other harness or mounting arrangement as we have not tested it and cannot state that it will meet the legal requirements or that it will offer adequate protection in the event of an accident. We specifically DO NOT recommend retaining the three point harness when fitting a four point system as we have seen examples of belt mounting failures on non-Lotus approved installations where the additional torque applied to the mount in impact as a result of the greater mount offset resulted in a direct stress failure. To achieve a safe installation all but the tallest drivers will need to fit seats with harness slots to get an acceptable belt run over the shoulders, in most cases the wider "wings" on these seats then prevent a three point harness sitting correctly across the torso. A badly fitting seat belt is potentially lethal, so don't take chances.
to me this says if you are putting in a harness, the stock belts have got to go."
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i grabbed this somewhere on ET not sure where:
Below is a posting from Nick Adams of Lotus ...
The seat belt mounts on the Elise meet the legal requirements for strength and as such are judged to be satisfactory. We supply kits to fit four point harnesses to all of our Elise based cars and these have also been tested and approved for use on the road by the relevant authorities. We cannot recommend using any other harness or mounting arrangement as we have not tested it and cannot state that it will meet the legal requirements or that it will offer adequate protection in the event of an accident. We specifically DO NOT recommend retaining the three point harness when fitting a four point system as we have seen examples of belt mounting failures on non-Lotus approved installations where the additional torque applied to the mount in impact as a result of the greater mount offset resulted in a direct stress failure. To achieve a safe installation all but the tallest drivers will need to fit seats with harness slots to get an acceptable belt run over the shoulders, in most cases the wider "wings" on these seats then prevent a three point harness sitting correctly across the torso. A badly fitting seat belt is potentially lethal, so don't take chances.
to me this says if you are putting in a harness, the stock belts have got to go.
Wow, that's important news. After reading Nick Adam's paragraph, I'd agree. So, that would mean 3pt for street, and then take it out for track and replace w/4pt---in order to keep from overloading the mounting points? I wonder if there's a way to strenghten the mounting points to alleviate this issue. Anyone have thoughts on that?
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...Recently developed head and neck supports or restraints, however, allow further reduction of head deceleration and neck forces. The SCHROTH asm® safety system cannot substitute for the effectiveness of e.g. a HANS®. The asm® system should never be used with such devices since it provides for a slight rotation of the upper body as well as some shoulder belt slack which are not wanted in conjunction with any head and neck restraints.
I don't understand this info from Schroth. The ASM system helps prevent the occupant from submarining...but it does nothing to help with BSF or other head/neck injury prevention, which is a major problem when your body is firmly held in place by the harness. So if they're saying the ASM system "should never be used with h&n devices", how is that safe? An R3 has lateral restraint measures, so the rotation caused by ASM would seemingly be fine. This is a point to resolve. We all need to use h&n systems for track driving, but if the ASM harness prevents this, only to alleviate submarining, it doesn't appear to be a safer alternative to a properly installed 6pt, and certainly not comparable to a 6pt w/h&n device. Wrong or right?
I'm about to make my final selection for a harness, so this is critical. If the ASM doesn't work sufficiently with ANY h&n device, I don't see the purpose of the ASM at all. Sure, it may hold you in place better than a 3pt, but if you don't use it on the street due to inconveniences mentioned up above--then it's relegated to track use. In that case, if not using a h&n device, you're not really set up for best safety measures. Schroth may be referring specifically to Hans, which doesn't provide for lateral restraint at all...but R3 and Hutchens Hybrid do have measures to address that.
Anyone able to shed more light on this?
So, to recap we've got two issues to research:
A) Factory mounting points aren't safe for both the factory 3pt and harness use at once--but can it be improved?
B) ASM harness may not offer an adequate safety system, since it doesn't integrate with h&n devices--but what about R3 and Hutchens Hybrid?
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Interesting all together. My plans were the following:
4Tress Hardness Bar
Purchase the Schroth PROFI II ASM Harness.
Purchase the anti-submarine belt bar & the Schroth PROFI II 5 pt sub-belt.
Hardware Kit to install the Schroth harness along with the stock seat belt.
G-Force Pro Force 1 SA2005 Helmet
GForce SRS-1 Helmet Restraint System
I plan to use the stock Elise seats.
So do you guys think this setup is totally unsafe?
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Based on the info from Lotus and Schroth, it would appear your setup is not recommended by either of them. Scary to think that we're all guessing about what's safe and what isn't. These systems need to all be tested--together--in order to determine what works properly, or not. How things appear to us is not relevant, only actual results are important. That said, unless I hear otherwise, I guess my only acceptable route is to go full OE street setup for street, and full track setup for track (6pt, h&n device, and no 3pt installed). Street setup is tested/proven, and same for the full track setup.
I too was planning to go with an ASM and h&n device. Now I'm not so sure. It's discomforting to me that so many products are sold without the sellers or buyers *really* knowing what works properly as a system. Being held still for autocross is one thing, but for high-speed track driving, where serious impact is possible, the systems really need to work in concert under impact.
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Interesting all together. My plans were the following:
Purchase the anti-submarine belt bar & the Schroth PROFI II 5 pt sub-belt.
I was considering going with a 5 point system myself recently and decided to go with a 6 point, profi II without the asm, with the lap belt attached to eye bolts instead of the seat hardware. I'd be guessing as well about the safety of the combination you describe but I can say that 6 point is rather snug around the boys down below, I can't imagine that the 5 point would make them very happy with the harness tightened down. That's just driving, I can't imaging what would happen down there in an impact, at least with the 6 point they've got somewhere to go without getting smashed.
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pixl, you obviously haven't upgraded to Sector 111's Removable Nut Kit for trackdays.
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My plan is to install a 6 pt. setup (not the ASM belts) and retain the stock belts as well. The difference is that the harness lap belts will not attach to the stock position (for the reasons Nick mentioned) but rather to an eyebolt and spreader plate setup similar to what Sleepless and others here have done.
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Nobody said a 4-pt w/ASM is as safe as a 6-pt. If you think H&N is a must then don't buy it.
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pixl, you obviously haven't upgraded to Sector 111's Removable Nut Kit for trackdays.
Well my wife keeps trying to keep them in a jar on the shelf but so far I've managed to keep them where they belong. Our dog is Jealous though she got his.