Interior Exterior
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Stan, regarding the sound system in my Elise- I shot the messenger on the other thread. Address my points there. However, since you show difficulty in reading comprehension, I will again state that the weight savings from using a Braille battery is more that the weight of the amp and bracket combo. And now, with this statement I must call into question the validity of your engineering background:
The heavy amplifier in the trunk with the shaky cantilever brackets tied into the taillight mounts.
Any first year engineering student would notice from the pics and description that the amp mounting is not in fact "cantilever" but the mounting is accomplished by simple beams, pinned at both ends. A software engineer I work with noticed this mistake and he is not expected to have a mechanical background! With this and the earlier statements made by you in this thread, I am beginning to suspect that you, Stan, are fraudulent in your engineering claims.
As any qualified engineer would attest, technical information should stand up to peer review. After more than a year of reading Stan's posts, I have decided to take this effort upon myself. I know it's going to be a tough road, but I feel the general population has not received 100% sound engineering advice.
For sure Stan is good at providing information. Almost too good, IMO. But it is quality, not quantity that determines the value of information. I have to say anyone who averages 5-10 posts per day of a lengthy technical nature cannot produce quality engineering work at their real job. I find it impossible to simply read all of TimMullen's and Stan's posts and get my job done at work.
Also, no qualified engineer would ever self proclaim that they are an expert. It is a term that is granted by others as being a good engineer is to know that you will never stop learning.
Just maybe the "armchair analysts" are "experts". I know that Stan is an engineer. My degree is in Aerospace Engineering, and at first I specialized in structures. I've worked on everything from stress analysis of nuclear reactors to flight trajectory simulations of the Space Shuttle, with a few missiles and and a couple of friends radically designed hang gliders ("rigid wing" bi-plane) thrown in.
Ah, another Engineer! See folks, if you don't look at things more like Tim and I may do in other parts of our lives, shift levers snap in half, planes crash, bridges fall down and so forth.
Have either of you ever heard of "Engineering Arrogance"?
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Also, no qualified engineer would ever self proclaim that they are an expert. It is a term that is granted by others as being a good engineer is to know that you will never stop learning.
Never claimed that I was an "expert". I don't think that Stan did either. My comments were simply in response to someone else that was questioning my credentials while touting his own...
I really, really am trying to not be personal in these discussions. I believe that Stan is also.
Edit: Out of curiosity, I looked up the other thread that you were talking about. Although not a "regular" cantilever, the cross bar is "cantilevered" from two bolts that are not intended for that load. The loads is in fact cantilevered on the mounts. Yes, it is a "beam" for vertical loads between the mounting bolts. But the forward/backward rotational loads will act as cantilevered loads on the mounting. The bolts will be subjected to bending loads that they were not designed for. The fiberglass that it's attached to are also not intended to hold a bending load at that point. There will be dynamic loads that were not intended for that area of the body. Fatigue affects may be a concern.
Will it hold the load? I would have triangulated the mounting bracket to the floor of the boot to have removed the bending loads and cantilever affects. Stan's comments about fatigue effects are reasonable. I think that Stan's questions/comments were meant to be in a helpful context, but you got defensive and took them as criticism. Oh well, I hope you are correct and there are no future problems - stress cracks in fiberglass can be a real pain...
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Agreed. This thread is a prime example of why I often hesitate to post anything that deviates from stock and without the 'Lotus blessing'. I guess I should have just mounted it, and gone about my merry way. I was actually somewhat proud of the installation, and thought maybe I could offer some trial-and-error insight to others in the market for one - seems that wan't the case. There appears to be some sort of ego-war waged here, and I don't see the point, nor am I impressed. Maybe it's time this thread did a disappearing act...
Dave I don't think anyone has given you a hard time. I think you did a great job on the installation considering the fact that they just shipped you a wing and let you get on with it.
I think this thread is very useful and we are learning about aerodynamics, engineering and how some of these companies develop and market these items.
I am hoping that Brett will have some numbers and more info from PB in the next day or two and we can continue to learn. Seeing as you have a vested interest in this I would have thought you would like to find out more as well...
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Agreed. This thread is a prime example of why I often hesitate to post anything that deviates from stock and without the 'Lotus blessing'. I guess I should have just mounted it, and gone about my merry way. I was actually somewhat proud of the installation, and thought maybe I could offer some trial-and-error insight to others in the market for one - seems that wan't the case. There appears to be some sort of ego-war waged here, and I don't see the point, nor am I impressed. Maybe it's time this thread did a disappearing act...
Dave, I certainly hope you weren't offended by my remarks suggesting that the trunk lid isn't a good mounting location for the wing. I didn't mean to offend, and I'm NOT an engineer, so I hope I'm wrong and the wing works well for you. It was obviously designed to mount to the trunk lid, so you did the best you could under the circumstances. on your installation - I do agree that you did a great job. I just don't think it's a great place for it to mount, and I think it could mean trouble down the road. No ego here, just an opinion, which I honestly do hope is wrong. If it turns out that you and others have this wing mounted for a period of time without problems, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I might just put one on my own car.
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Dave, I certainly hope you weren't offended by my remarks suggesting that the trunk lid isn't a good mounting location for the wing.
Eric, no offense taken from anyone here...just sounding off a bit. It just seems this thread has gone beyond the constructive point (and getting off-subject), and now a battle to see who gets in the last word.
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I think you guys are underestimating the serious effects of excessive pressure, as clearly demonstrated in this video....
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/popeyes.html
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Is the Exige wing adjustible?
Is the wind tunnel data from Lotus Exige wing testing available to post on EliseTalk?
Has there been wind tunnel testing to prove the conjecture that adding a wing and splitter to the Elise will upset the delicate performance balance of an Elise?
If one adds more low end torque and top end speed to an Elise by whatever means is increasing stability of the car more or less important?
Does anyone want to keep up with the Vetts and Vipers on the straights after blowing them away in the turns?
Will an Exige do that?
Anyone interested in reducing the frequency of Elise EVENTS on track days?
Anyone enjoy making a good thing better?
I can't wait to have an Elise track day when Dave with his wing and Nitrous bottle, Keith and his turbo beast, fastmx5 with his well tuned rocket, FF, Brett, MWR, jhass and other Elise innovation leaders will have a chance to show that the BS stops when the green flag drops.
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http://www.grouplotus.com/car/news_detail.php?id=63
from the official Lotus site as from today,
Lotus Exige............slightly slower than the Elise due to the higher levels of aereodynamic downforce,giving phenomenal corning power,with around 42 kg of downforce at 169 kmh.the equivalent of a new born rhinocerous......
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Agreed. This thread is a prime example of why I often hesitate to post anything that deviates from stock and without the 'Lotus blessing'. I guess I should have just mounted it, and gone about my merry way. I was actually somewhat proud of the installation, and thought maybe I could offer some trial-and-error insight to others in the market for one - seems that wan't the case. There appears to be some sort of ego-war waged here, and I don't see the point, nor am I impressed. Maybe it's time this thread did a disappearing act...
Dave,
Please don't be discouraged from posting because of the dialog going on here. Your work and your sharing of it may be of significant benefit to others. I do think there are some valid concerns expressed...not with your post, but with some of the engineering aspects that may only be answered by real-world testing, which you and a few others will eventually provide (we hope).
Some posts are a little counter-productive and probably spilled over from unrelated controversy on a couple of other threads. Just don't let them interfere with the good interchange this forum is known for.
The wing looks great and I hope it performs as well as it looks.
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Tim, please see my response on "the other thread" as that is where it belongs:
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IIRC Eliseparts has an adjustable wing that ties into the frame structure.
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Is the Exige wing adjustible?
Is the wind tunnel data from Lotus Exige wing testing available to post on EliseTalk?
Has there been wind tunnel testing to prove the conjecture that adding a wing and splitter to the Elise will upset the delicate performance balance of an Elise?...
Lotus does use wind tunnels to develop the aero on the cars. Why should we accept less from the aftermarket and risk performance and or stability
The burden of proof (of performance benefit) is with the tuner
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Patrick, perhaps you can find and post links to some of the wind tunnel results so that we can have an idea of what we potential customers should look for in aftermarket products.
I have done searches for and posted requests for some photos of an elise in a wind tunnel but haven't been able to find any photos. Maybe you know where these might be. I would love to see some info on this subject.
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Patrick, perhaps you can find and post links to some of the wind tunnel results so that we can have an idea of what we potential customers should look for in aftermarket products.
I have done searches for and posted requests for some photos of an elise in a wind tunnel but haven't been able to find any photos. Maybe you know where these might be. I would love to see some info on this subject.
When I was at Hethel the other week while sitting in a prototype car, I had a chat with on of the Lotus engineers and he was explaining how they use wind tunnel testing to perfect the aero package and that the very car I was in was still undergoing this testing.
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Maybe you can email that engineer and request some data and photos.
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Maybe you can email that engineer and request some data and photos.
If you want it please call Lotus and ask them for it.
Lotus has published what the down force numbers are for the Elise & Exige. What more do you want or think that they might divulge?
As I said before the burden of proof is on the tuners
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I am more interested in seeing a photo of the elise in the wind tunnel. If you have a connection at Lotus I would love to see a photo, it would look cool as my desktop. I have spoken with lotus dealers and reps in this country and done google searches without success.
With regards to the numbers I can think of other data such as drag, variablities of placement of the wing fore and aft as well as the height of the wing.
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I am more interested in seeing a photo of the elise in the wind tunnel. If you have a connection at Lotus I would love to see a photo, it would look cool as my desktop. I have spoken with lotus dealers and reps in this country and done google searches without success.
With regards to the numbers I can think of other data such as drag, variablities of placement of the wing fore and aft as well as the height of the wing.
Look at some of the Lotus books that are available there could be a picture in one of them.
And can think of reasons that that data would be confidential We are not asking for the keys to the kingdom from the tuners just some evidence that they are selling more than a bling peice
I am off to Vegas now so have fun I am hoping to see Brett while I am there
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Here's a terrible photo of a poor photo of an Elise being tested by Lotus in the MIRA wid tunnel. It's from the Lotus Elise: Official Story book, although my copy is an older version that doesn't spend much time on the S2 and none on the Fed Elise.
Note that the chapter is called "Aerodynamics" and goes into detail about the testing program that Lotus undertook to get the aero stuff right. Not just stuff like lift v. downforce, but engine cooling, wind noise and top-off passenger compartment buffeting.
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Look, if you don't like my posts or whatever, fine. This is not my site, I am not affiliated with it, and I do not sell anything here. I have a great deal of car experience of different kinds and over a long period of time. I've done all sorts of car projects, although my Elise is the most stock car I've ever had, since I run it in a stock class. I have multiple technical degrees and have taught myself just tons of other stuff. If you don't like to hear what some have posted here feel free to research the particular topic at hand or listen to others or figure it out for yourself. In this case aerodynamic add ons and how they affect a car. There is lots of relevant material out there for your perusal and trials.
Much of this stuff is basic to ANY car. Such as the E30 M3 example I provided. I have one and it is a wonderful driving machine, hard core like the Elise. It's aero stuff works, works well, and is safe, won't break off needs no design effort to install, etc.
Brett says that he'll look into the information the Elise wing designer / mfg may have. It may very well be along the lines of what others have requested. Maybe the results are pretty good, if they are the parts must be used in the exactly the same way they were designed for and tested. That is not possible right now since Brett does not have this information and it may or may not exist. In the mean time things like: "This carbon fiber piece is the ultimate in style and function" are posted about it on the sales site. Well let's hear about the function some more. It also seems like some are designing, building, and installing reinforcing mounts and accomodations for the part. Maybe things like that could come with the part? From his site it looks like at least two wings are offered...how about more information on each?
Drive my car like I mean it? I do all the time..I've got 27,000 miles on it and about 2-4 autocrosses a month since I got it (when it's not Winter). First one = 4 days after I got it, had to run in 2nd / 3rd gear to keep the Rs down. In the last month or so codriving with National Champ drivers in my Elise, I was 0.4 seconds slower than one, and 0.3 seconds behind the other. How about you?
Nitron shocks. Who do you think worked closely with Ohlins in developing their Federal Elise shocks? And the SCCA version of it? The shocks that various vendors are now selling? Right...me, way back last year and early this year. I've been involved with several other products now sold for the car, or was copied. Anyone running BMW wheels bolts, you're welcome. I found the K&N air filter that fit the car through trial and error, not by clicking to order one. Oil filter cross references. ABS Ice mode data some are now using. Detailing mods. Pedal mods that work and cost nothing, some of which are now in the Service Manual. Lots, and lots of other actual hands on examples. Your turn.
Hey Stan, Sorry I could'nt get back to you sooner. Your BMW reminds me very much of a of a 1981 Audi Quattro wannanbe. Once again I'm glad to hear that you put on non-Lotus tested and approved wheel bolts on your stock Elise and your non-Lotus approved K&N air-filter. How's your CEL light because I know you think all after-market filters and cold air intakes are to blame. Glad to hear you were second in your autocross run with your national champion and once again first loser in your second run with your national champion racing in the parking lot around psychodelic witches buried in asphalt. It has to be so rewarding, especially when you have to explain to people in Europe what autocross is, when compared to a good hill climb or a spirited run through the canyons. Oh and what about me? The last time I ran on the track was in 1996 at Willow Springs I pulled a 117. Big track, not the streets! So next time you're in California and you want to go for a cruise through the canyons please drop me a line. And as for your friend Tim and his great engineering credentials, not that he is responsible, can you say Columbia and/or Challenger? Can you say wonderful sunsets off the coast at Vandenburg when they hit auto destruct? And last but not least, can you say automotive recalls for defects in engineering and safety? Does Three Mile Island or Chernobyl mean anything because I believe these were engineering marvels? So why don't you guys stop knocking enthusiasts enjoying their passion??
P.S. Check for ink stains from your pocket protector.
Yours truly,
Ronin, Free Thinker (the wave tossed man)