Interior Exterior
Q:
My plan is to install a 6 pt. setup (not the ASM belts) and retain the stock belts as well. The difference is that the harness lap belts will not attach to the stock position (for the reasons Nick mentioned) but rather to an eyebolt and spreader plate setup similar to what Sleepless and others here have done.
At the risk of getting thwacked for not spending half an hour searching...could you please post a link to the 3pt alternative mounting you describe? Thanks, sounds very interesting.
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Interesting all together. My plans were the following:
4Tress Hardness Bar
Purchase the Schroth PROFI II ASM Harness.
Purchase the anti-submarine belt bar & the Schroth PROFI II 5 pt sub-belt.
Hardware Kit to install the Schroth harness along with the stock seat belt.
G-Force Pro Force 1 SA2005 Helmet
GForce SRS-1 Helmet Restraint System
I plan to use the stock Elise seats.
So do you guys think this setup is totally unsafe?
cpforyou - WHY are you using an ASM harness and then adding a sub-belt? Just buy the PROFI II 6-point, or 4 point with a sub-belt, but without the ASM feature. The ASM is meant for only a 4-point setup and cannot be used with a HANS device as the HANS depends on the shoulder belts to hold it tight onto your body. Perhaps the GForce helmet restraint doesn't need this, but once again, why buy the ASM if you are adding a sub belt?
LOD mechanic said to leave them in. I am glad I did.
My Schroth harness says in small print "Not compliant with HANS or similar device". I wear a HANS. Don't believe everything you read.
Eye Candy - if your Schroth harness is an ASM and you are using it with a HANS, you could easily cause more harm than good. I don't believe everything I read either, but I know from a design point of view that the ASM technology is not compatible with a HANS. Now if you have a non-ASM schroth harness and it says not compatible with a HANS, I wouldn't worry so much.
All - there is much info on harnesses in the sticky safety thread. I don't understand why anyone would want to wear a harness on the street (toll booths, parking lot tickets, rolling down pax window, etc.. would be a major PITA), but to each their own I guess. When on the track I don't compromise on safety - I find it hilarious that some will drop $700 on a sport exhaust, but not buy a HANS device. I have a Schroth 6-point setup, lap belts bolted into the chassis frame, sub belt bolted to the Sector111 sub-bar, and shoulder belts to a harness bar. I would not consider a track setup which uses the seat mounting points if it meant I had to remove the OEM belts as well. Even if I was willing to remove the OEM belts, I would be somewhat concerned on using the stock seat bolts as it just doesn't seem that solid.
-RWarden
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Nobody said a 4-pt w/ASM is as safe as a 6-pt. If you think H&N is a must then don't buy it.
I don't think either of the harnesses are safe enough without a H&N, and sled testing I've seen footage of and read about is what makes me think this way. I guess what I'm saying is, if the ASM harness isn't compatible with any H&N, then what good is it?
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I don't think either of the harnesses are safe enough without a H&N, and sled testing I've seen footage of and read about is what makes me think this way. I guess what I'm saying is, if the ASM harness isn't compatible with any H&N, then what good is it?
I'm not not disagreeing with most of that logic.
We agree that ASM is not compatible with H&N restraints of any kind. It is not that they won't fit, it's that they are dangerous. If your shoulder moves forward and your head does not, you can expect an injury.
We agree (thusly) that if you want to use H&N restraints that you should use a 6-pt. belt.
Where I disagree is with your assertion that a belt that doesn't work with H&N restraints is worthless. We're all entitled to our own standards here, and many of us have different standards depending on where we are (street or track).
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...I have a Schroth 6-point setup, lap belts bolted into the chassis frame, sub belt bolted to the Sector111 sub-bar, and shoulder belts to a harness bar. I would not consider a track setup which uses the seat mounting points if it meant I had to remove the OEM belts as well. Even if I was willing to remove the OEM belts, I would be somewhat concerned on using the stock seat bolts as it just doesn't seem that solid.
-RWarden
Would you be so kind as to point to the thread that details your lap belt mounting points/procedure. This is the best idea and I want to do it this way.
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I'm not not disagreeing with most of that logic.
We agree that ASM is not compatible with H&N restraints of any kind. It is not that they won't fit, it's that they are dangerous. If your shoulder moves forward and your head does not, you can expect an injury.
We agree (thusly) that if you want to use H&N restraints that you should use a 6-pt. belt.
Where I disagree is with your assertion that a belt that doesn't work with H&N restraints is worthless. We're all entitled to our own standards here, and many of us have different standards depending on where we are (street or track).
Actually, I'm not sure that Schroth really means "any" H&N, or just the Hans (their info may not be current, because other H&N device versions have hit the market very recently). The R3 and Hutchens Hybrid both have lateral motion measures built in, so that leads me to believe they should be considered differently than the Hans in this case. And btw, a H&N doesn't keep your head from moving forward independent of the shoulders, it just limits head travel to within a non-lethal range. So, that said, if an ASM harness rotates the occupant, and you're using a H&N with lateral movement measures, I would *guess* that an R3 and/or Hutchens Hybrid might work just fine, whereas a Hans with fore-aft measures only would be compromised in a rotation of the occupant--the movement wouldn't be arrested properly and the slacker inner belt may compromise secure placement of the Hans in general.
As for a harness being worthless without a H&N device, here's my thought. If it keeps you in place for autocross, where speeds are lower and impact is generally non-existent, that's fine. It allows you to exert less energy stabilizing your body, and promotes "lighter hands" on the wheel. But....if you are in a high-speed track situation, then you venture into Dale Earnhardt scenarios. The harness holds your body back into the seat under impact--so you don't crush your head and chest on the inner cockpit elements, breaking your neck and causing brain trauma--not to mention other injuries. While arresting your body's forward motion, the shoulders are held to a limit of fore-aft travel, and your head accelerates unchecked until the neck reaches a physical limit of deformation, the head acts as a weight on the end of a taut string and the spinal column anchor point (which becomes the brain stem) pulls through the base of the skull between the occipital and temporal bones--that's a basic descriptive of BSF (basilar skull fracture). Now, if a harness is totally incompatible with a H&N restraint device, I'd say that harness is ONLY suitable for low-speed impacts and autocross. Is it worthless? No. Is it very limited? I'd say it is. Just my opinion, and I'm open to others of course. It's all in the name of safety, not personal preference.
Btw, I was just about to buy an ASM harness, so it disappoints me to come to this realization. I thought I'd found a great option, but now I have serious doubts about it and I wish that wasn't the case. Watching their demo video, showing how the ASM system works, was very impressive. But no H&N compatibility is a certain deal-killer for me.
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We specifically DO NOT recommend retaining the three point harness when fitting a four point system as we have seen examples of belt mounting failures on non-Lotus approved installations where the additional torque applied to the mount in impact as a result of the greater mount offset resulted in a direct stress failure.
i've read and reread this comment several times since posting. i think what adams means is that harness lapbelts mounted to the outside of stock belts could a direct stress failure due to excess torque applied to the mount.
based on the pics in the install guide, the sector111 lap belt mount kit appears to address this issue. the harness lap belts mount inside of the stock lapbelt and the overall mount assembly is the same size as stock. would anyone who has installed the lap belt kit care to comment?
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i've read and reread this comment several times since posting. i think what adams means is that lapbelts mounted to the outside of stock belts could a direct stress failure due to excess torque applied to the mount.
based on the pics in the install guide, the sector111 lap belt mount kit appears to address this issue. the harness lap belts mount inside of the stock lapbelt and the overall mount assembly is the same size as stock. would anyone who has installed the lap belt kit care to comment?
So if the stock lap belts are mounted to the outside, then what happens in higher-speed shunt on the street while using the OE 3pt? Will that cause a mounting point failure if they're positioned further out than from the factory (if in fact that's the case with this installation--I don't know, just asking)?
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So if the stock lap belts are mounted to the outside, then what happens in higher-speed shunt on the street while using the OE 3pt? Will that cause a mounting point failure if they're positioned further out than from the factory (if in fact that's the case with this installation--I don't know, just asking)?
based on the install kit guide the stock lapbelt offset appears nominal.
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Would you be so kind as to point to the thread that details your lap belt mounting points/procedure. This is the best idea and I want to do it this way.
I recommend you read the entire thread, but I think the harness mounting details and pictures start on page 3. If you mount the lap belts to the frame rail behind the seats, I recommend using the "rally" style loop as it is bendable and takes up much less room than a normal eye bolt. You can then use normal "clip-in" style belts. Also, use a backing plate to further spread the load.
Also, as a side note, when I received my Schroth Profi II 6-point harness I was a bit concerned that the buckle was on the sub-belts, and not on one of the lap belts where I was used to seeing them. Now that I've had it for a while, I prefer the sub belt location for the buckle as you can flip it down onto the floor where it is out of the way for street driving. There is not enough room in this car for the a lap mounted buckel to sit when not being used.
Hope this helps. If you have any specific questions, post or PM me as I spent a lot of time investigating the different harness options for the Elise.
-RWarden
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I recommend you read the entire thread, but I think the harness mounting details and pictures start on page 3. ...
Thanks! I'll check it out.
And thanks for the other tips too. Definitely looking into this closely. May PM you at some point.
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I recommend you read the entire thread, but I think the harness mounting details and pictures start on page 3.
-RWarden
+1. i've read this thread about 20 times. my biggest concern is where to mount the right lapbelt. since wrapping it around the metal edge of the seat seems marginal at best. i'm still debating on what to do but i am inclined to use the sector 111 lapbelt kit with a scroth profi-II 6 point and hans.
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What about a simple foam collar wrapped in Nomex...those are not attached to anything and just prevent unwanted neck movements. So in theory with the 4 point ASM Schroth harness, your upper body would rotate forward a tad as would your neck and head...the collar would prevent unwanted additional movement -right?
I am missing something here...
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Neck collars do nothing for safety. Old school misinformation. Under crash forces, neck collars don't retain the head to within non-lethal range from the body. Some can even increase leverage on the base of the head by jamming firm material under the chin as the head travels forward. The nomex may help keep your neck from burning, but for crash safety, the collars are not effective.
For comfort, some people--with short enough necks--can get a little neck strain relief by resting the lower helmet edge on the collar around turns.
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Really? Neck collars don't do anything? I would assume they provide *some amount of safety, if it were complete BS I would imagine safety parts companies would stop selling them since everyone knows they are BS. I've just seen so many experienced drivers wear them who I would also assume know what they are doing. I can see how if something is so soft you can squish with one hand wouldn't do much for a helmet travelling at 100mph with lots of kinetic energy - but again, just seems strange everyone should know they don't do anything but they wear them anyways.
So to be clear:
I have the 4 point Schroth harnesses. I should *NOT use a neck collar with them? and I should *NOT use any kind of Hans device with them because the belts already stretch out enough to absorb energy?
and:
People don't suggest running them on the street because it's unsafe that you are strapped in, in case of an emergency like fire, rollover, whatever?
It seems like a catch-22 where I definately feel safer with them on, regardless of where I am as I wouldn't want my body flying out the front windscreen in a frontal crash on the highway or...like rolling down a canyon cliff...or rolling off a high speed corner on the track. Isn't it usually better to be well strapped in?
So then is everyone saying the the 4point is a waste of money and either go with the stock 3 points and be unsafer...or go full out and get a 6 point with a Hans?
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Whoa, nobody said anything about an ASM harness replacing a H&N device. Two totally different things. The ASM is designed to mimic a 5- or 6-pt harness by implementing anti-submarine measures with a 4-pt format. That has zero to do with H&N restraint, it's a different problem to solve. The fact that Schroth's info states the product is incompatible with H&N devices is what I question--is it just the Hans, or is it all devices (and what is their as-of-today stance, now that the R3 and Hutchens Hybrid have test data that shows their devices have effective lateral motion control measures). That's a mystery at the moment.
As for the neck collars, they used to be required in racing, but now H&N devices are slowly taking over for head/neck motion control/protection. It's not that drivers who use neck collars are not smart, it's that in the past, neck collars are all that there was and they were required by sanctioning bodies in their GCR's and those were adopted and followed by track safety crews as well. Now that GCR's are changing to include H&N devices, neck collars will become a thing of the past. Scientific testing has evolved, materials have evolved, and knowledge has grown tremendously on driver safety measures. Realize too that over the years, participants have put huge pressure on sanctioning bodies to not require the most costly equipment, and so it's not been a requirement to run a H&N device in past racing series until recently. And not all have the same guidelines. Some require a neck collar (or) H&N device (or) driver nets with neck collar, etc. It's an evolutionary process.
If you'd seen sled tests, you'd realize the neck collars are worthless. In the past, we had nothing else, so that was *the* safety measure. Now that testing has become sophisticated, it's evident that some widely sold "safety" measures are completely ineffective. Even now, there are battles between companies claiming their device does this, and the others' doesn't.
I used to use a neck collar, even a specifically-shaped one that was I was convinced was better by the head of Bell Motorsports. After researching when the Hans hit the general market a few years ago, I ditched the collar and started using a Hans on track. Now I'm going to switch again to an R3 most likely, as I like the lateral motion control measures in that device.
Btw, race equipment companies sell what manufacturers supply and people will purchase. Since there is no absolute authority on what "works", it's up to consumers to decide what the best solution is for them. I raced in one series where they offered a discount deal on one of the H&N systems made up of nylon belts...and it had already been proven in sled testing that it DID NOT WORK in preventing fatal head/neck injury compared to other available equipement. Some racers bought that item, because it was approved by the series, negated the requirement for a hot/uncomfortable neck collar, and it was CHEAPER. Foolish. But it's a free landscape to do what you want.
Things are changing in the H&N restraint world, and there is no simple answer. I want to protect myself from injury best I can, and that means choosing carefully with all available data.
For track: as of today's discussion, I can't see how you can beat the safety of a properly installed 6-pt + H&N device (and side restraint seat or driver nets for lateral head motion control). I was hoping an ASM harness could be used instead of the 6-pt, but now I have serious concerns.
For street: I'd guess running a 4-pt is fine as long as you aren't bothered by inconveniences--and as long as the body retention doesn't send your head into an exploding airbag at a bad angle, compressing your spine or injuring the top of your head. Airbags are made to work in concert with the OE 3-pt belt, and the angle of the body impacting the bag is planned carefully. Introduce a different scenario with the harness, and it's anyone's guess how it can help or harm your chances of avoiding injury. I guess an answer from Lotus and Schroth would be in order here--because what seems to be a simple matter of better restraint leads to a more complex interaction of harness restraint + airbag impact + unknown speed above which the harness may lead to dangerous force levels on head/neck compared to the OE 3-pt/airbag combo. For street, the scenario is actually more complicated than for track, IMO.
Wish I had better and more clear-cut answers. I'm just an enthusiast/driver like you, searching for what's best and safest. I don't have answers, only questions.
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Thanks for the explanation...very clear. I guess you nailed with the whole situation of varying information and not a lot of standards. I always used to hear the whole argument against harnesses on the street were your head could get crushed in a rollover on a non-caged/non-roll bar-ed vehicle, and that weighed against the chances of you getting thrown from the car was something you would have to balance out. I would hope that the Schroth harnesses (4 point) since we are talking about it, do provide some amount of real stretch to simulate what the stock belts would do.
Then you have to wonder why the stock Exige seats don't have the submarine holes in them lol.
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Yep, I would hope the same thing. And harnesses [do] stretch under force. It's just a matter of how much, and what position your body is in relative to what the airbag is designed to work with on the stock 3-pt. And then we all must take into account that the OE belts are all fastened and cinch consistently as designed--whereas harnesses are mounted and adjusted by individuals. It's kind of like third-party companies who release software extensions without having inside testing op's with the core software developers; then it becomes a "which problem did we create while fixing another"?
Yeah, why the heck don't those Exige seats have sub slots, but they do have shoulder slots? Weird indeed.
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Yeah, why the heck don't those Exige seats have sub slots, but they do have shoulder slots? Weird indeed.
apparently lotus was testing the exige seats for sub slots but found that the seats did not meet the strength test required.
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cpforyou - WHY are you using an ASM harness and then adding a sub-belt? Just buy the PROFI II 6-point, or 4 point with a sub-belt, but without the ASM feature. The ASM is meant for only a 4-point setup and cannot be used with a HANS device as the HANS depends on the shoulder belts to hold it tight onto your body. Perhaps the GForce helmet restraint doesn't need this, but once again, why buy the ASM if you are adding a sub belt?
-RWarden
The reason is because I want to use the stock Elise seats. If I purchased a 6-point, I cannot use the stock Elise seats right? By going with the 4-Point from Sector111.com, and upgrading to the 5-point with antisubmarine bar, I can retain the stock Elise seats. Or am I mising something here?
As far as the G-Force helmet restraint system, it's a little different from the HANs system, so I was thinking that maybe it would work.