Interior Exterior
Q:
milcher!!
Exc detective work, my hat's off to you!!
Chris
A:
Call me stupid or whatever, but I'm puzzled... Why wait until 1000 miles before complaining or doing something???
Why not take some action after the first few chips, say after 100 miles and get it repaired and protected or complain?
Kiyoshi
A:
Extended warranty?
Heidi! What are you keeping from the rest of us?
LOL! There is an extended warranty available. And another This thread has an actual response from one company that supplies the warranty; Fidelity. And so on. I'm opting not to get it, at least not right now. The markup from my dealer is ridiculous, ($2400!) and it doesn't really cover that much. The suggestion was made to put aside the money the warranty would cost and use that to cover repairs. If the price were reasonable, I'd get it. They seem to be more than doubling their cost, since I know some dealers - or so I heard - are offering it around $1000.
I promise not to come back here at a later date and complain that I wasn't forced to buy the warranty!
On another note though. I DID buy a tire/rim and paint warranty from the dealer. I know, more dealer fluff, but it covers damage to the paint and tires from normal driving. My feeling was that if the starshield failed, etc, their warranty - at a couple of hundred dollars - has to take care of paint damage. That's what they promised. Same with tires and rims. With what they cost, if I hit one pothole and ruin a tire/rim, I'm way ahead!
A:
I never got offered an extended warranty. Screwed by Lotus again. I'll add that to my lawsuit.
A:
Well, my dealer did not install my front license plate bracket. If I elect to not ask him to do it, or if I choose to not do it or not pay someone else to do it, would I have recourse to have my dealer pay my no-front-tag ticket because he didn't install the accompanying bracket as part of pre-delivery?
Of course not.
Funny you should mention this.. I know one dealership that recently paid a fix-it fee for a woman who bought a car with no front plate installed. She made a big stink about it, blamed the dealership, and after it was all said and done, the dealership was out like $35. I don't know how much offering/declining/insisting went on with regards to the plate, but personal responsibility is a lost art in the US.
If there is a new "waiver" form to sign next time I'm there, we'll know why.
A:
I went to the local Line-X dealer and have an appointment next week to spray the sides of the car, the bottom of the front clip and a small area around behind the rear wheels.
A:
Good job Milcher! There was also another post with similar information that Joe was 'involved' in. Very recently too. On 1-11-05, a thead entitled "Star shield must be installed" what?? started. Joe was the second poster: . Within hours, this was posted:
It's obvious that Joe did know about the issues, but decided to forego the starshield either because of the looks or the cost.
I said repeatedly that it was because I didn't want the yellowing. The very thread you all are referencing specifically stated that to be in issue in the first post.
He was not ignorant about the reasons for the starshield.
I was not told the damage would come from my own car. Why do you keep ignoring this?
I also noticed, while browsing, that Joe seems very angry at Lotus in many of his posts. Like a time bomb waiting to blow. Threatening to cancel his order more than once.
Give me a break. I was pissed off about the complete lack of communication from the factory - as were virtually all the posters.
Another interesting pont is Joe reporting that he had talked to Lotus directly in November. Seems like the perfect time to ask any questions he may have had about the starshield.
What would have prompted any discussion on that? Had Lotus advised its customers of the resulting damage, there wouldn't be any discussion.
A little over a week later,
He knew about starshield, knew the reasons, and several times stated very strongly that he did not want starshield.
Sory Heidi, thats bull****. In every thread, I posted that I did not want the yellowing. I never posted that I didn't care abot rock damage.
I still believe if he had received the car with those two pieces of film his first move would have been to have them removed since he was so definite about not wanting any film.
And you would be wrong. If the dealer had installed them and EXPLAINED WHY THEY WERE NECESSARY, there never would have been a problem.
This is a no-win situation for his dealer and Lotus. Put on film that the customer has refused to have put on and risk his anger over that, or don't put on the film and have him mad about the damage.
BS. Lotus needs to explain why its necessary and make it mandatory.
Joe, you erred in judgment and it caught up to you. You were not an uniformed consumer. I for one don't believe that you were involved in these posts/forums, yet somehow missed all the reasons that were posted for getting the starshield. You did not want it, and therefore did not get it. So blaming anyone for your choice now is ludicrous.
Sorry, but your wrong again. Lotus never said there would be damage without the star shield and I was not given the information to make an informed decision. EVEN IF I had seen the post talking about damage, ITS LOTUS' responsibility to explain that THIS WILL BE A PROBLEM. Consumers shouldn't have to rely on a forum that as you are proving, is full of half truths and misinformation.
Did you purchase the extended warranty that is offered? If not, will you be complaining that Lotus should have forced you to buy that in some later post?
There is no such thing as a Lotus extended warranty. You got suckered into a aftermarket offer from the dealer.
A:
Joe,
Do you need someone to tell you not to stick your hand in a pot of boiling water? You honestly didn't notice all this "self destruct" damage on your car until the 1000 miles point? Didn't happen to hear the pee gravel pinging off the sides of your car?
Chris
A:
Joe,
What did you think the starshield in front of the rear wheels was for if not to protect against rocks from the front wheels?
A:
There is no such thing as a Lotus extended warranty. You got suckered into a aftermarket offer from the dealer.
I never said LOTUS offered the extended warranty. My exact words were: "Originally Posted by heidi528
Did you purchase the extended warranty that is offered? If not, will you be complaining that Lotus should have forced you to buy that in some later post?"
An EXTENDED warranty, not a LOTUS warranty. Offered as of late this fall from what I know. How did I get suckered? I also stated I did not buy it.
So does Lotus make the starshield as well? NO... But they make it available, through the dealers. And the extended warranty is available, through the dealers. It's about choice here. Choice of getting these options or not. You chose not to get the starshield. I chose not to get the extended warranty. If something happens to my car and I'm not covered later on, for the simple reason that I CHOSE not to get the warranty, does that mean I should come back here and complain that Lotus knew something could go wrong eventually, and they should have forced me to buy an extended warranty because of that? No matter who offers it?
C'mon. I'm not the only one saying you didn't do your due diligence when ordering your car. You were offered the starshield. If you didn't know enough about it you should have asked. I go back to one of my original statements - paraphrasing. Did Lotus warn you that dropping a heavy object on the windshield could break it? Will it be their fault for not warning you if that happens? Or any of a host of other mishaps. Didn't it ever occur to you to find out WHY Lotus recommended the starshield? More than just a quick question or two to the dealer? Common sense says the tires will throw rocks and sand backwards, and the film is designed to protect from that abuse.
I'm sorry I've angered you. But what I see here is someone who didn't do enough research, and isn't happy with his choice in the end. Blaming Lotus, the dealer, etc. is a cop out. A way of passing the buck. The starshield is NOT necessary - unless you want to avoid the rock damage. And, again, why didn't you address the issue after the first few miles? Why wait 1000 miles?
If nothing else, your posts and the others here may save some other owner in the future, by convincing them to get starshield or its equivalent.
A:
Now clearly Lotus KNOWS there is an issue. There is a responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure the customer is aware that the car will be damaged if the option is not taken.
The dealer can not warn you of all possible consequences of using the car. Didn't you even wonder WHY Lotus was offering the StarShield as an official factory option? I've never heard of any "regular" cars having it. You say that you would have bought the StarShield if they had told you why? I find that interesting since you purchased the LSS package against the factory's recommendations - that's right, Lotus recommended that LSS should only be for Elises that will spend most of their time on a track.
You ignored Lotus' advice on a highly recommended option, but bought the option that they recommended that 95% of the people not buy...
I guess I need to go after Honda, because when I bought my Accord many years ago, they didn't tell me I had to get the optional rear mud flaps. I managed to get a couple of paint dings there before I installed the flaps. Hummmm... No that I think about it, same thing for my Miata.
I don't know about others, but my general common sense tells me to always install mud flaps if they are available because if I don't, I'll get paint chips. A simple look at the shape of the Elise, and it's easy to tell that it will need some protection, and since Lotus offered it, I bought it. Heck, my car is a "base" Elise - no other options - but I made sure that I got the StarShield (and it was one of the very early cars to be delivered).
The lack of protection is not Lotus' fault - it's the design of the car. It's your extra wide and sticky LSS tires. Yes, the dealer should have installed the "factory" shield pieces, but you should have made sure that they were installed. When you saw your first chip in the area, you should have looked into getting some protection - you were aware that there were StarShield like products available since you were worried about "yellowing".
Lotus is not liable for the damage any more than Honda is for my Accord's paint chips. The dealer might bear some responsibility for not installing the small factory shields (but there would still be some damage).
The car is a Lotus - not a Ford/Chevy/Honda/etc. You need to expect things to be different and not "perfect" - it is a small hand built, quirky high performance sports car. A Lotus buyer/owner needs to be much more knowledgeable about things than a typical car buyer - it is a different world.
A:
Joe,
Do you need someone to tell you not to stick your hand in a pot of boiling water? You honestly didn't notice all this "self destruct" damage on your car until the 1000 miles point? Didn't happen to hear the pee gravel pinging off the sides of your car?
Chris
I didn't notice it unitl I washed it last weekend.
A:
Personally, I find this to be a much closer call than most people here. I tend to think it's just not acceptable to sell a car that suffers so much paint damage so quickly. If it's that much of an issue, there should be protection there -- it shouldn't be an option. And I don't think it's up to the customer to have to research the issue. But it's not cut-and-dried, especially under the specific facts of this case.
What I do find amusing about this board is the high level of intolerance by some people for any complaints about the car. Some people seem to take complaints about the Elise as a personal attack -- like a lion protecting her cubs. Would we so stridently defend Chevy if the complaints were about a Cavalier? I don't think so. Tim summed it up:
The car is a Lotus - not a Ford/Chevy/Honda/etc. You need to expect things to be different and not "perfect" - it is a small hand built, quirky high performance sports car. A Lotus buyer/owner needs to be much more knowledgeable about things than a typical car buyer - it is a different world.
Is the fact that this is a Lotus a sufficient excuse for selling a car with self-destructing paint? Maybe, but I'm not so sure.
Personally, I haven't had to make excuses for the quality of my car -- the quality of mine's easily on a par with most of the vehicles I've owned. I've never had to say, "Well, it's a Lotus." But for those who've experience problems, I think it's a fair question to ask if we really should hold Lotus to a lower standard than your average car maker.
A:
I was one of the 1st to take delivery, but for such a huge purchase ($45K, 5 1/2 years of waiting) I did a tremendous amount of research to make sure I got it right. Knowing this car is unlike all others around, I wanted to pick out the exact right options. I opted for the Starshield with absolutely NO track record in the States, based only on the European's recommendations. They were kind enough to post pictures to help. Joe-let it go. You DIDN'T do your homework and now you're paying for it. Accept it and learn from it.
A:
Joe (and people like hime) are the reasons there are warnings on lawn mowers that inserting your hand underneath the mower when turned on can cause a loss of limb.
They always look to blame someone else for their mistakes
A:
Joe,
What did you think the starshield in front of the rear wheels was for if not to protect against rocks from the front wheels?
Oh C'mon Steve. You're just piling on now. Joe, and a whole lot of others, never even heard of the standard shields until this thread and the thread that preceded it last week.
His only legitimate complaint is that the standard shields were not installed nor even provided when they should have been. More than just myself have seen that is clear, why not you?
And Joe's gonna get it fixed now too, so he's learned the hard way. Who here will deny they have their share of hard-learned lessons in their resume?
Not only that. Despite the crowd here who are ribbing Joe mercilously with woulda-coulda-shouldas and outright wrong speculations, his experience has done a great service for even those who don't lurk at this site because of the word-of-mouth generated. Even the no-nothing salesman (well, ya never really know how good or bad until you deal with 'em, ) are gonna be aware of this problem now.
A:
Oh C'mon Steve. You're just piling on now.
Yea, but it's so much fun to come in at the end and unload!
A:
Final comment. Promise. Joe, I checked out your webpage. The Corvette is gorgeous! You're not an amateur, for sure. You know a LOT about cars. How to modify, enhance, and so on. Seems like you'd be the kind of person to research every inch of this car, including the options. I just can't believe you were blind to the whole starshield issue - the why's and why not's. You know cars. I knew nothing about this car until I bought one and came to this forum, and within hours I knew how important the starshield was. I also saw the picture of your car - clean, no damage visible. Was that taken with no mileage? You don't seem like the kind of person who would drive 1000 miles without washing their car; not judging by what you own and have done. Almost makes me wonder if this damage came a lot closer to the end of that 1000 miles, by something other than "normal" driving.
So you made a choice, and in the end it was the wrong choice. Admit it, fix it, and move on. Good luck with your fix, and I hope it looks even better than new when you're done!
Are you getting starshield - or something - now on the parts that CAN be damaged by other cars? Or taking your chances?
A:
I'm also a grizzled veteran of Lotus ownership (like Tim and others).
I won't jump on Joecooool for his decision. I do agree with Tim, though, regarding expectations for the Elise. As I (and others) have said in the past, Lotus ownership must be taken with a grain of salt...or else you'll really be an unhappy person. While I agree that there is no excuse for many of the problems we've faced and will face with the Elise, they're gonna crop up. I am not trying to "defend" Lotus -- I'm trying to brace future buyers the experience of owning one. Even a modern one like the Elise.
I will go so far as to say that we need folks like Joecooool out there. Their actions may force still futher improvement in what I consider to be amazing quality for a Lotus (compared to my old Esprit). If Joecooool manages to get Lotus to cover his expenses, hats off to him.
I just hope this kind of action doesn't drive up costs for future buyers -- or worse.
A:
I still can't believe that anyone would argue that Lotus isn't obligated to let the customer know how important the star shield is.
I was never told and never owned a car that damaged itself from simple driving.
I'm amazed at the number of people here who think Lotus can do no wrong. The Corvette comunity isn't like that, they jump all over GM when they think there is a design issue. Hell I was standing next to Dave Hill when a C5 owner told him he thought he f'ed up the C6 with the stationary headlights.
I will solve the problem with the coating I am having applied next week. However that changes nothing with regard to Lotus' obligation to inform its customers.