A&Q about Lotus
Q:
I searched the threads and didn't find any meaningful discussion on cleaning road salt from the Elise.
I bring this up as Winter is approaching here in much of the US and in some areas they use salt like there is no tomorrow. My questions are:
1. How damaging is road salt to the aluminum structure of the Elise?
2. How would one go about removing said salt.
3. How could one be sure they got all the salt off the car?
Thus leading to 4, should I just pack it away once the salt hits the road until Spring? (I want a NO to 4, BTW )
A:
well take a glass of salt water and dop in a couple of pieces of aluminum and you'll fin ound in a few day!
sodium chloride and sand is usually what the put on roads. it will eat the aluminum like candy! yum yum aluminum my favorite . i live by the practice that one the roads are salty i oput the car in storage. until thes heavy spring rain blasts them clean!
you can never get all of this ravenous predator clean from nooks and crannies...but hey its your car.
i learned this the hard way with my ducat 748. one nice day i took it out and rode it then washed it and put away for the rest of winter. 3 months past and i took it out of the shed!!! holy crap what is that white stiff eating the aluminum i thought, then i remembered! shoot
A:
I'd pack it away. Salt can pit aluminum. I've also heard stories about it "dissolving" it. It's one of those things that is difficult to completely clean off as it can spray into all sorts of cracks and crevices. Not sure about the effects of salt specifically on the aluminum used in our cars. Different alloys have different levels of corrosion resistance.
A:
It is not the aluminium that you need to be concerned about if you use your car for winter driving, it’s the glue.
And it all depends upon which colour glue that Lotus used to bond the chassis together, early S1’s used red glue but the chassis on the high mileage test car came apart during one trip to Stelvio in the winter, so the factory switched to blue glue which is less permeable and subsequent tests proved that the red glue would decompose over about 5 years, with higher mileage cars being more at risk.
It is common practice in Europe to protect both the red and blue glue by rubbing it with toothpaste during the winter, but this is problematic as repeated applications are required.
Don’t use Colgate as it seems to react with the glue and comes up in a lather. Colgate seems to have far too much fluoride in it and could cause even more damage to the glue.
Instead of using toothpaste Lotus have an official protective coating for the glue which is part no. A111H00KLINESINKER011277UJ7. It still requires re-application though and it is expensive so it is far more economical to stick with toothpaste.
The red glue is apparently stronger but the blue glue lasts longer and has more flexing in it and also has the added benefit of being approximately 3kg per car lighter, this is why they use it on the S2
The reason the blue glue is lighter is because the red glue uses compressed atoms in a double density arrangement. So for any given length of glue, the red glue’s extra weight can be calculated using the commonly accepted formula devised by one of the original Danish engineers at Hydro.
X = (1.14712Y)*4/3Y^2 where Y is the weight of blue glue
All S2’s are manufactured using blue glue and there have been numerous problems where the blue glue turns green as it ages and this is exacerbated by extreme cold temperatures. Once green it’s far past its best, you see green on lots of cars kept outside and driven through the winter - it seems to be the salt that’s accelerating the degradation of the glue.
You need to keep a close eye on the colour of the glue, but it’s still within specification even if it has turned green as long as it never turns orange - if you have orange glue then talk to your dealer immediately as the glue is now well out of specification.
Lotus have said this method of bonding is only good for 10-12 years anyway. They know all about this problem yet still try to pretend that they have sorted the problem - You should all go and have a look under the engine cover at the chassis rails - that’s were it tends to go orange really quickly. Maybe the heat makes the degradation happen quicker?
Some owners have reported that when their glue turned green they definitely noticed a feeling of more flexing in the chassis and are worried that up-rated suspension and more powerful aftermarket engines must put even more strain on the chassis joints. It has worried some owners to the point where they won’t run with slicks anymore.
Lotus will begrudgingly replace the glue if it has turned orange within the chassis warranty period. This is a lengthy job but at least it all under warranty though, so shouldn’t be problem. Although the car has to be returned to Hethel as it is not a dealer job.
Before re-bonding they have to immerse the chassis in acid to strip off the old glue. The benefit of this is that the chassis comes out looking like new. The VIN gets an 'R' added at the end to show this has been done.
A:
Nice that you took all that time to type that, but you have to experience the volume of salt used in Canada and the US to understand the problem. UK experience isn't the same. Living on continental Europe now for a decade, I can say that they use nowhere near as much salt here as in NA, and many German and Swiss Opel Speedster owners have reported corrosion problems with out relatively "mild" salt use. Even if the chassis can take it, you'll hate yourself the next time you need to work on the suspension, brakes or remove the clam, as the fasteners will be a mess. I would put it away. Of course I'm too late; my glue has all turned orange , but I'll chance it anyway for a few more years.
I believe portions of the chassis may be anodized, but I still wouldn't put it through a salt bath. I went through a lot of alu bike components during my days of winter commuting in Toronto.
A:
You are pure evil!!!!!!!
Bill Tebbutt
A:
so let me get this straight, the cars frame has an expected life of 10-12 years??
seems kinda short....
Originally Posted by Andrew S
It is not the aluminium that you need to be concerned about if you use your car for winter driving, it’s the glue.
And it all depends upon which colour glue that Lotus used to bond the chassis together, early S1’s used red glue but the chassis on the high mileage test car came apart during one trip to Stelvio in the winter, so the factory switched to blue glue which is less permeable and subsequent tests proved that the red glue would decompose over about 5 years, with higher mileage cars being more at risk.
It is common practice in Europe to protect both the red and blue glue by rubbing it with toothpaste during the winter, but this is problematic as repeated applications are required.
Don’t use Colgate as it seems to react with the glue and comes up in a lather. Colgate seems to have far to much fluoride in it and could cause even more damage to the glue.
Instead of using toothpaste Lotus have an official protective coating for the glue which is part no. A111H00KLINESINKER011277UJ7. It still requires re-application though and it is expensive so it is far more economical to stick with toothpaste.
The red glue is apparently stronger but the blue glue lasts longer and has more flexing in it and also has the added benefit of being approximately 3kg per car lighter, this is why they use it on the S2
The reason the blue glue is lighter is because the red glue uses compressed atoms in a double density arrangement. So for any given length of glue, the red glue’s extra weight can be calculated using the commonly accepted formula devised by one of the original Danish engineers at Hydra.
X = (1.14712Y)*4/3Y^2 where Y is the weight of blue glue
All S2’s are manufactured using blue glue and there have been numerous problems where the blue glue turns green as it ages and this is exacerbated by extreme cold temperatures. Once green it’s far past its best, you see green on lots of cars kept outside and driven through the winter - it seems to be the salt that’s accelerating the degradation of the glue.
You need to keep a close eye on the colour of the glue, but it’s still within specification even if it has turned green as long as it never turns orange - if you have orange glue then talk to your dealer immediately as the glue is now well out of specification.
Lotus have said this method of bonding is only good for 10-12 years anyway. They know all about this problem yet still try to pretend that they have sorted the problem - You should all go and have a look under the engine cover at the chassis rails - that’s were it tends to go orange really quickly. Maybe the heat makes the degradation happen quicker?
Some owners have reported that when their glue turned green they definitely noticed a feeling of more flexing in the chassis and are worried that up-rated suspension and more powerful aftermarket engines must put even more strain on the chassis joints. It has worried some owners to the point where they won’t run with slicks anymore.
Lotus will begrudgingly replace the glue if it has turned orange within the chassis warranty period. This is a lengthy job but at least it all under warranty though, so shouldn’t be problem. Although the car has to be returned to Hethel as it is not a dealer job.
Before re-bonding they have to immerse the chassis in acid to strip off the old glue. The benefit of this is that the chassis comes out looking like new. The VIN gets an 'R' added at the end to show this has been done.
A:
Good one Andrew!!!!
I have to agree with the others, put it away for the winter. The salt will definately attack the aluminum. How fast until you start loosing structural integrity is the question. Probably ok the first 2 or 3 years, but after that is anybodies guess, 5 years, 10 years??? Your modern steel cars have the frame/bodies completely coated to guard against corrosion and this also guards you against salt accelerating the corrosion. Many aluminum alloys weather normal atmospheric corrosion well so they don't need a coating. Does anybody know if the Elise/Exige frame gets dipped in a coating tank or sprayed after being glued together? I can't see coating it before assembly as this could inhibit the adhesion of the glue.
A:
i found this on the Internet:
Because adhesive-bonded joints are strong in shear but weaker in peel, each joint is reinforced by thread-forming rivets to prevent the onset of peel during a crash. The ejot rivets selected for the task are self-swaging and selftapping drive screws. They are made from mild steel coated with a high-performance corrosion-resistant finish called Dacromet. A zinc aluminum coating, Dacromet gives a significant 480 hours of salt-spray resistance
Where a rivet is to be inserted, a hole of 8 mm diameter is drilled in the top element, and one of 4 mm diameter directly underneath. The 6 mm diameter rivet is then rotated at high speed by the special insertion tool and introduced into the larger hole. As it is driven down into the smaller hole, it melts the aluminum around the sides, and the displaced material is drawn up into the larger hole. As a result, thread engagement along the length of the rivet is ensured.
A major exercise in corrosion prevention has led Lotus to adopt Xylan and Delta finishes on components where an aluminum element comes into contact with a steel element. In some places, a coated 0.5 mm thick shim is inserted between the aluminum component and the steel component so that it protrudes from the joint by 5 mm. This effectively provides a l O mm-long path between the two metals which is sufficient to prevent corrosion, says Rackham. A finish, however, cannot be applied in every case, he adds. For example, there is a circlip to hold in bearings, which cannot be coated. Here, the engineers have employed an aerospace-grade grease.
From
A:
Some more tongue and cheek replies, but also some useful information about salt and the Elise can be found HERE
A:
I realize its nowhere near as concentrated as the white bathed winter streets, but wouldn't a coastal environment be bad for the Elise (or any car) as well? It seems like the constant exposure to salt would be just as bad as the one month a year winter salt exposure. Reason I ask is because we're considering moving to a coastal town (Gulf Shores Albama), I'd rather not see the Elise's bits get ruined sooner than they should but I'd also rather not give up the car.
A:
Geez... I'm even more glad now to live in the perfect car preserving weather that is Arizona... Only thing we worry about is paint oxidation and sun damage.
Is what "Andrew S" posted true? Every single Elise I've seen has had red/orange glue from the factory.
P.S. I've never once driven a car in snow nor seen any road salt in my entire life
A:
You need to keep a close eye on the colour of the glue, but it’s still within specification even if it has turned green as long as it never turns orange - if you have orange glue then talk to your dealer immediately as the glue is now well out of specification.
All of the glue on mine is Orange but it came that way. It's a June 05 build.
A:
since my Elise has orange glue, I guess I'm in a bit of a sticky situation.
A:
Oh for gawd's sake...Please, before it goes any further, Andrew is messing with you. It made me laugh out loud, but I fear that someone may actually freak out over this and waste a bunch of people's time trying to find out that he got hosed by the internet.
A:
.... so i can't drive my car during the winter cuz of road salt? that sux..
A:
Bane
If your glue has turned orange you must take your car directly back to the dealer to have your glue replaced. The only thing that I can think of is that salt water corrosion has attacked your car when it was shipped across the Atlantic.
Your car must be shipped back to the UK for the glue replacement operation. If I were you I would insist that it is returned to you by air so that salt water does not attack it again.
I realise this may be costly but your dealer should be able to help out with a subsidy.
A:
Originally Posted by Bane
Geez... I'm even more glad now to live in the perfect car preserving weather that is Arizona... Only thing we worry about is paint oxidation and sun damage.
Is what "Andrew S" posted true? Every single Elise I've seen has had red/orange glue from the factory.
P.S. I've never once driven a car in snow nor seen any road salt in my entire life
He's messin' with ya.
Bane........ I've heard that the Arizona desert heat does a number on rubber bushings,hoses and things. Have you noticed any problems with rubber deteriorating prematurely?
A:
Originally Posted by Andrew S
Bane
If your glue has turned orange you must take your car directly back to the dealer to have your glue replaced. The only thing that I can think of is that salt water corrosion has attacked your car when it was shipped across the Atlantic.
Your car must be shipped back to the UK for the glue replacement operation. If I were you I would insist that it is returned to you by air so that salt water does not attack it again.
I realise this may be costly but your dealer should be able to help out with a subsidy.
Unfortunately, the dealer may go along with this theory for a little extra change.
A:
Originally Posted by Andrew S
Bane
If your glue has turned orange you must take your car directly back to the dealer to have your glue replaced. The only thing that I can think of is that salt water corrosion has attacked your car when it was shipped across the Atlantic.
Your car must be shipped back to the UK for the glue replacement operation. If I were you I would insist that it is returned to you by air so that salt water does not attack it again.
I realise this may be costly but your dealer should be able to help out with a subsidy.
Yes, CLICK HERE for the genius who does the operation in the UK.