A&Q about Lotus
Q:
Is it?
Did you weigh the difference?
If it is, I'll change it.
A:
Originally Posted by Andrikos
Is it?
Did you weigh the difference?
If it is, I'll change it.
That is what Sector111 advertises it at, the rear panel is 5.5 lbs and the replacement aluminium struts are 0.25 lbs, for a net savings of 5.25. I think this is about right from what I remember. I will weigh the rear panel tonight to confirm.
Stephen
A:
OK, just weighed the rear panel, it is actually 4.5 pounds. So the net savings is 4.25 lbs once you add the aluminum struts.
Also, I weighed the rear panel behind the seats with the speakers attached. That came out to 6.8 lbs.
A:
I just weighed 2 things here at work on our ultra accurate shipping scale (0.005 lb. resolution)...
My new Challenger grill (no hardware just the grill out of the box)... 1.500 lbs. and the grey lower foam trunk liner 0.415 lbs.
So according to your above measurement the Challenger grill will lose (4.500 - 1.500 =) 3 lbs. Cool!
A:
Originally Posted by 05EliseNM
OK, just weighed the rear panel, it is actually 4.5 pounds. So the net savings is 4.25 lbs once you add the aluminum struts.
Did you weigh the heat shield too?
A:
There are two rear panels. I did not weigh mine before I gave them away but both of them are well over 5 pounds for sure. I did not see a distinction between unsprung weight and rotating weight. Get the engineers in on this but I bet the effective weight loss of rotating weight is 4 times sprung weight and unsprung non rototing weight is probably 2 times that of sprung weight. Do you want weight info on removable items or just things for sale?
A:
Originally Posted by fpitas
Did you weigh the heat shield too?
No, I forgot about that part; good catch. Let me see If I can dig up this piece, I might have thrown it away. So with the heat shield, the Sector 111 weight of 5.5 pounds may be correct.
A:
Originally Posted by Buz
There are two rear panels. I did not weigh mine before I gave them away but both of them are well over 5 pounds for sure. I did not see a distinction between unsprung weight and rotating weight. Get the engineers in on this but I bet the effective weight loss of rotating weight is 4 times sprung weight and unsprung non rototing weight is probably 2 times that of sprung weight. Do you want weight info on removable items or just things for sale?
We might as well post items that we are just removing, I can't see that it would hurt to post this info. However, I think Andrikos was just looking for purchased items for his list.
A:
That is funny, my postage scale showed 1lb 0oz for the trunk foam. It did not seem that heavy though.
A:
Originally Posted by 05EliseNM
We might as well post items that we are just removing, I can't see that it would hurt to post this info. However, I think Andrikos was just looking for purchased items for his list.
I don't have a problem with adding items that are $0.
That's the best type of weight reduction: free!
The list that was started by Taxcheat (or should we call him Weightcheat now?) merely included items that are upgrades to existing components.
A:
Taxcheat,
I'm just wondering if you'd like to include something on your list that reduces the weight of the car by 70 lbs and adds 60 real HP and 60 lb ft of mid-range torque at the same time? It improves the weight distribution by 1.5% and lowers the center of gravity substantially as well. You then have the option of adding up to 160 more HP by increasing the weight 30 lbs, or adding up to another 360 HP with another 15 lb increase. Generally the idea of adding weight doesn't sit well with me, but considering the HP gains I figure it's worth it.
The item in question is a Honda K20A. The first example is the stock naturally aspirated configuration, the second is the 2 liter intercooled M62 supercharger configuration, and the third is the custom-built 2.3 liter intercooled M90 supercharger configuration. I'm beginning the dyno testing on the 2.3 liter version next week, both N/A and S/C, so I'll have those dyno charts available once all the testing is finished. In the meantime I'd be happy to e-mail you those I have already if you're interested.
Joe
A:
It would be nice if we could include the tire weight. I found this
A:
Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy
Taxcheat,
I'm just wondering if you'd like to include something on your list that reduces the weight of the car by 70 lbs and adds 60 real HP and 60 lb ft of mid-range torque at the same time? It improves the weight distribution by 1.5% and lowers the center of gravity substantially as well. You then have the option of adding up to 160 more HP by increasing the weight 30 lbs, or adding up to another 360 HP with another 15 lb increase. Generally the idea of adding weight doesn't sit well with me, but considering the HP gains I figure it's worth it.
The item in question is a Honda K20A. The first example is the stock naturally aspirated configuration, the second is the 2 liter intercooled M62 supercharger configuration, and the third is the custom-built 2.3 liter intercooled M90 supercharger configuration. I'm beginning the dyno testing on the 2.3 liter version next week, both N/A and S/C, so I'll have those dyno charts available once all the testing is finished. In the meantime I'd be happy to e-mail you those I have already if you're interested.
Joe
Also good for lightening peoples wallets. Educate yourself, do a search!
A:
Sure, if it's a mod that can be done it makes sense to include it. The main question is, what's the cost of conversion?
Is the K20 really 70lbs lighter when all the needed extras are installed? Sounds kinda optimistic.
The dyno results aren't really that interesting because it's a great engine with known potential. I'd rather see a before/after weight scale printout.
A:
Taxcheat,
The cost of the K20A conversion depends a lot on how much you buy the engine for. I found a JDM K20A Type R for this car on e-Bay for $5,000 that had very little mileage on it. It was only missing a few items [inboard CV joints and one sensor] so that added another $450 to the total. I've bought these engines for as little as $4,800 and as much as $6,400 complete for other cars. A less expensive [$3,00-$3,500] but slightly lower HP option is to use the K20A2 engine from the RSX-S. Unfortunately it comes with wider ratio 4th, 5th, and 6th gears, an 8.5% taller final drive, a 50% heavier flywheel, and no LSD so it's not what I recommend. The conversion kit itself, which includes $1,350 worth of user programmable Hondata K-Pro ECU and the exclusive Prototype Racing integral baby board that drives the Elise dash display costs $7,500.
Unlike the K20A which is the most highly sought after 2 liter engine on Earth, the 2ZZ Toyota isn't going to bring much more than $2,000 on the open market in very good used condition. So take an average price for the engine package [$5,600] and subtract what you can sell the Toyota for and you're looking at $11,100 plus a weekend of your time.
Naturally the higher HP options add $.
Unlike Lotus I consider engine positioning to be of paramount importance in these cars, so a couple of years ago when I was doing the original conversion I put it as low and as far forward as I could without modifying anything on the car. This resulted in the crankshaft centerline being a full 2" lower and 1.8" farther forward compared to the 2ZZ. I tried to retain the Honda A/C compressor but that was going to compromise positioning the engine properly so I removed it. I figured handling is more important than A/C. Since then I've devised a way to include the Toyota supplied A/C compressor, which is substantially smaller than the one Honda uses, so A/C will be an available option for those who want it.
I didn't take photos of my scales when I was weighing the car, but here are the before an after corner weights with about 1/2 tank of gas.
2ZZ -- LF 373, RF 363, LR 602, RR 594 Total 1,933 38.1% F, 61.9% R
K20A - LF 366, RF 372, LR 564, RR 562 Total 1,864 39.6% F, 60.4% R
This includes the removal of the A/C compressor [10 lbs] and repositioning a 10 lb lighter battery to just behind the firewall rather than hanging out there in the trunk where Lotus puts theirs. I used a Panasonic battery at first, but I switched over to a Brialle battery a couple of months ago that's 4 lb lighter and works better. I make the battery tray and hold-down out of Aluminum and Magnesium, and I weigh everything I build on a gram scale. I saved 16.1 lbs just in the engine mounts.
Because I planned on using the Lotus supplied oil coolers as heat exchangers for my water to air intercooler system I left those in place, and if you just plan on running your car naturally aspirated they can be removed as well. That'll save about 25 lbs. The K20A already has a water to oil cooler, and Lotus didn't include those oil coolers just to cool the oil anyway. Tony Shute [Elise Project Manager] told me personally they included them to keep from having to build a bigger radiator and redesign the front of the car. The K20A routinely runs 6-8 degrees cooler than the 2ZZ did.
I'll let you calculate the cost per pound, cost per HP, or whatever you feel like doing.
Last Summer when Car&Driver weighed all the cars competing in their Superfour Challenge my car weighed in at 55 lbs lighter than Forced Fed's, both with full gas tanks.
Joe
A:
So it's essentially the same price as a full CF clam but provides a greater weight savings and power potential. Car & Driver seems to like your setup.
Is this your kit, if not, who makes it? How much would installation run? (the list doesn't factor installation costs, I'm just curious)
Also, are lighter engine mounts available for the 2ZZ?
A:
Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy
[...]I'm just wondering if you'd like to include something on your list that reduces the weight of the car by 70 lbs and adds 60 real HP and 60 lb ft of mid-range torque at the same time? [...] The first example is the stock naturally aspirated configuration [...]
you say:
190 + 60 = 250 hp
134 + 60 = 194 lb.ft
i find:
Originally Posted by from answers.com
2001-2006 Honda Integra Type-R
Displacement: 1998 cc
Compression: 11.5:1
Power: 220 hp (162 kW) @ 8000 rpm
Torque: 152 ft·lbf (206 N·m) @ 7000 rpm
Redline: 8500 rpm
where does the difference come from?
A:
I put an odyssey PC625 in my car (thanks Greg for the free battery! JK ) and the weight savings were 13 lbs.
The stock battery is 30.4lbs and the PC625 is 17.4lbs.
I'll update my spreadsheet and post it.
I also saved some weight (Oz) by not using the Lotus fastener and by making an aluminum clamp to keep the battery in place. This puppy is going nowhere!
A:
Taxcheat,
Yes it's my kit, I build everything except the axles and the ECU. I have the axles made from SAE 4340 VAR steel so they're bullet-proof, and the ECU work is done by Hondata. It was pretty funny when I first did the conversion on my car, I had to drive it for about 3 months with no dash display at all. I read coolant temp with a K-type thermocouple and that was it. Hondata is just down the street from my shop and we've been working together on the Honda K-series since the beginning, so we've become quite good friends in the process. I gave the CAN-buss problem to Derek and he designed a baby board that lives inside the ECU case and allows the Honda ECU to talk to the Elise dash display. I, like so many other people, had noticed the rather optimistic nature of the speedo, so we checked Lotus' code and found they set it exactly 8% fast on purpose. That deception gets corrected with my setup.
I do installations for $2,000 and that includes engine specific dyno tuning by the owners of Hondata.
Lotus just took what they bought from Toyota [engine mounts included] and redesigned the car so it'd fit. This meant truncating the chassis about 5" farther forward than on the earlier cars because the Toyota package is substantially wider [mostly due to the transaxle], this is also the reason the crank centerline is so damn high. They would've needed to reposition the A/C compressor to get the whole thing down lower and I guess Proton wasn't willing to pay for it. This chassis shortening results in the rear suspension loads being carried by the sub-frame rather than by the chassis as on the earlier cars, so they had to beef up the sub-frame and in the process made it a LOT heavier [58 lbs -vs- 31.5 lbs]. I'm not aware of anyone who makes light weight 4130 steel engine mounts for the Toyota. The OEM stuff is just mild steel and heavy because it's pretty weak material to begin with. Cost is their No. 1 consideration so they're always using whatever does the job as cheaply as possible.
I'll e-mail you the dyno charts since you seem to be interested.
Joe
A:
Joe,
No offence but:
1) You seem like a very knowledgeable guy who has a great powertrain alternative for the Elise (especially for the N/A junkies)
2) OTOH, you seem to have a poor reputation on this forum and others from older members (older than me) of taking money and not delivering on your promises.
Which one are you?
How are you planning to make sure that people can trust you so we can go ahead and have a few K20 conversions done for the Elise?
This would go a LONG way to open the floodgates of trust for you.
This Forum votes their confidence with their wallet (Read Sector 111, ForcedFed, Tripoint, 2Bular, Robert Puertas etc. etc.)
I hope you understand the dichotomy here.
If you build it (trust), they will come.