A&Q about Lotus
Q:
It's up to the individual to decide when to toss the tires. If you can drive on them and be happy, that's fine. Hard tires can make you look bad or at least worse than you are. They can even give you a tough time just at driving school. The back diamonds I drove on with the Vette did.
Some cars put more heat in the tire and kill it quicker. My ZR1 killed the front. I switched left to right, depending on whether the track was clockwise or counterclockwise. Tires aren't cheap. I kept the best rubber on the outside.
I'd highly suggest buying a tire durometer. The Yokos aren't particularly soft when new, I think I got numbers in the low to mid 60s at best. The Kumho V710s were about 58 new, They were tossed at 72 with much rubber left. You may see the tire harden unequally across the tread, depends on the track and the camber settings and tire pressure. So how many cycles depends. I never hear of people getting more than 10 on anything. There are people, however, that continue to drive the tires until they hit the cord.
I never went that far.
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I've also read that age affects R-compounds significantly as well, so even if you're not using them (i.e. leaving them in the garage as track day tires), the performance of the tires taper off over time as the compound gets harder.
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the 048 get slippery before the tread is gone, I doubt that most people get the temps up on the street as much as on the track so then it becomes a matter of extended high speed driving freeway etc, I found the rear wears much faster than the front ( normal), but the tires are good for about 10-12twenty-twenty five min session on the track that is pushing the car and using the tires as intended, other may get more out of them, but that is all I got,at twelve session the rear where just not sticking.
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Originally Posted by gameson
The track event will be the first for me with this car.
Now I am getting worried. Maybe I should hold off to my first ever track event until I get new wheels with tires?
First time out???
No problem. You won't be going fast enough to bring max adhesion into play. Go out there, learn everything you can, leave your wee wee at home and have fun!
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Cool, I guess if I have the blessing from you, I should be OK. I am just worried that without good tires, I might not be able to handle the car like slipping the tail (oversteer?). I have confidence for my front, but not really on the rear...
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Originally Posted by gameson
Cool, I guess if I have the blessing from you, I should be OK. I am just worried that without good tires, I might not be able to handle the car like slipping the tail (oversteer?). I have confidence for my front, but not really on the rear...
Don't know where you are racing or what the ambient temp will be but make sure the pressures are a few pounds lower (cold) to start. Shoot for 26F/28R Hot. Check them hot after every session and adjust accordingly. The first time is not about speed. You shouldn't be sliding the front or rear.
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It's Willow Spring (link is at first page) in North LA. I haven't sign up yet as I have been worrying about (1st the truck rental which didn't work out) and (2nd tires).
Over in San Diego, it should be nice and cloudy on a Sunday. Dunno about LA, but it should be the same.
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Originally Posted by gameson
I totally am not familiar with this A048, especially heat cycle. So how do you know that the tire hasn't been push to their adhesion limits. The track event will be the first for me with this car.
So you are saying, after the track event, the grip will fall significantly? Will I be able to drive another 150 miles after the event?
Now I am getting worried. Maybe I should hold off to my first ever track event until I get new wheels with tires?
You're getting a lot of good advice in this thread.
Ahhh... some recommendations then, but first, how do I know? From looking at the photos. The best thing to do would be to find the quickest guy in an Elise/Exige at your track and have a look at his, for a comparison (unless he's running RA-1s, like the "cheaters" around me - you know who you are!).
My car is on the other side of town at a shop at the moment, but I can post pics of mine. They've got ~3000 miles on them, five days on track, aren't quite on the wear bars yet, and are now garbage. I had to drop my pace considerably at my last track outing to remain safe. They look a bit like the crinkled finish on a pickup's bed liner now.
If this is the first time you've ever been on a track, and especially if it's the first time you've ever done any performance driving, you'll likely be just fine. Find a good instructor and focus on confidence, learning the lines, putting the car where you want it, and exploring just how far out there the limit is (it's pretty far out there in these cars!).
You'll be grinng ear-to-ear when you come off the track.
I wouldn't start changing stuff on the car yet (wheels, tires, etc.) without spending some time familiarizing yourself with what you've already got. It's a damn good package, right out of the box. A wise track junkie recently mentioned to me that learning on a consistent platform is a lot better than learning on one that's constantly changing. Not to mention - it's cheaper too!
As a side note, going a little further on what MitchT said... I'm of the opinion that the AO48s can't be fully exploited on the street due to temp. I'd have to drive like a complete a-hole in order to get enough heat into them to even approach the level of grip they've got, once up to temp, at the track.
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Originally Posted by spf4000
I've also read that age affects R-compounds significantly as well, so even if you're not using them (i.e. leaving them in the garage as track day tires), the performance of the tires taper off over time as the compound gets harder.
hmm, if I ever get a second set of wheels/tires, I will have A048 used specifically just for track. If I only go track once a month, will that be a problem?
Originally Posted by codymac
You're getting a lot of good advice in this thread.
Ahhh... some recommendations then, but first, how do I know? From looking at the photos. The best thing to do would be to find the quickest guy in an Elise/Exige at your track and have a look at his, for a comparison (unless he's running RA-1s, like the "cheaters" around me - you know who you are!).
so what do I need to look for exactly to find out about this adhesion just by looking at it? I know my pictures quality is not the best as I used compact camera and hold it myself, but if you can judge by looking at my crappy pictures, then it must be pretty obvious.
If you can post your tires, that would be great. I need to learn more...
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Originally Posted by gameson
hmm, if I ever get a second set of wheels/tires, I will have A048 used specifically just for track. If I only go track once a month, will that be a problem?
Now you're getting smart. Cody said it best. You can't really use the A048's to their full advantage on the street, let alone the car. So why run R compounds that just wear and heat cycle out?
Pics won't do you any good. They all look the same. Worn in the middle. The sign of a guy going fast is the deterioration and signs of melted rubber at the edges. You can pretty much look at a guys tires and know his lap times within a second or two until you reach the fastest guys where they all look the same.
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Originally Posted by gameson
hmm, if I ever get a second set of wheels/tires, I will have A048 used specifically just for track. If I only go track once a month, will that be a problem?
If I remember correctly, the article I read said the optimal grip for R-compound is the first 6 months up to a year. After that, the compound loses its softness and the grip begins to fall off. I'm not sure how rapidly the A048s lose their grip, but according to people on this forum, it's a noticeable difference.
This is true for other tires as well. I had a set of Bridgestone S-03s for my previous car as my track set, and they really lost their grip after a while, even though heat cycling wise, they should have had some life left.
But this is only relevant if you're going to do time attacks, or participating in races. For HPDE track days, you shouldn't have problems even if your tires have lost some of their grip. All you have to do is drop your pace slightly to compensate for the loss in grip. When you're learning to drive a the limits, it's better to start off at a low threshold so you can experience tires sliding at a lower speed.
Personally, I don't think Elises are great cars for beginners to learn how to drive at the limit as the car's limits are very high. The faster you go, the faster things happen at the limits, so when the tires begin to lose grip, novices won't be able to react fast enough to catch it and end up getting in a lot of trouble. A car with a much lower threshold would allow you to experience the limits of the car at a much lower speed, where things happen slower.
Therefore, if this is your first track experience, it might be better for you to have less grip so you can keep your speed down.
Be careful out there, and good luck!
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Originally Posted by codymac
(unless he's running RA-1s, like the "cheaters" around me - you know who you are!).
Cheaters, I thought you were gaining on me...
Man, you are talking like you know what you are talking about too ...
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Looks like plenty to me.
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You saved so much money buying that car, get some new tires!
Seriously those tires were getting slippery on my last track event. I was driving at my limit, on a warm enough day, pressures correct and sliding enough to back off, a lot.
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Originally Posted by gameson
If you can post your tires, that would be great. I need to learn more...
Will do. I'll probably be switching them out for new this weekend along with (self) re-tech'ing my car. I'll probably bring the car home tomorrow night but won't see it until then.
Originally Posted by YAUDI
Cheaters, I thought you were gaining on me...
Man, you are talking like you know what you are talking about too ...
I am gaining on you. You just haven't slowed down enough to realize it yet!
See there? And you guys thought that I just stood around in the pits and picked my nose. I'm actually eavesdropping. I plan to take what I can from everyone else's experience and then whoop up on all y'all!
For those not in the know, YAUDI is the "wise track junkie" I was referring to above with the "don't change the car" comments. Of course, he's also an RA-1 "cheater."
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After about 100 miles of easy street driving after the last track day.
They're just a hair shy of the wear bars and garbage at this point. Most of the roughness has been worn off on the street but the color is still there.