A&Q about Lotus
Q:
I think I am ready to do this. I'll try to keep it as short as I can.
Two months ago I slid my Elise into a guard rail on interstate 91 in VT (mile 39). I do not know the actual impact speed as a lot happened in a very short time frame. I suspect it was between 45 - 50 mph. Tha car was destroyed. Most of the front end was gone and the right front suspension was ripped off. Nasty crash.
Conditons:
Car and surroundings very hot, had to keep shoes on. (yes I have been known to drive barefoot). I saw rain coming south (I was headed north) so I pulled over, put top on and continued. Within three - four minutes light rain requiring intermittent wipers, began. Saw more rain coming and slowed to about 55 mph. Long easy right hander and then road straightened out and started a slight upward incline.
Disaster:
Car was straight and fine when the skies opened up with a cold, heavy downpour. Rain was heavy enough so that full wipers did not provide good vision. As I hit the full wipers I turned AC to windshield and hit the hazzards as I intended to begin to bleed off speed. Things started happening VERY fast. The road was slightly uphill with a sort of "W" set of heavy traffic ruts. I came back the next day to see if I could figure out what and why and noted the ruts. They filled with water, 1/2" to 1" almost instantly. Car was up on plane immediately. Tires were fair and given the conditions were not the primary. Not to tread bars but compound was probably getting hard. Especially with sudden, cold downpour. Very heavy gusty wind with the cold front. Car was feeling very "twitchy" as if it was being pushed around a bit by wind. That's actually what I thought was causing the "twitch" at the time. I am not sure now, could have been deep water and/or uneven road surface. I do know the car felt like it was on jackstands. No steering wheel feedback. I think I was at upper 40's maybe 50 mph when the rear twiched to the right and then came around the left (cw rotation) fairly quickly, more of a slide heading for a spin than a snap spin. Up to this point there was no steering input by me and I did not lift off the throttle, I was trying to gently reduce pressure and speed to get the tires back down. A problem in that kind of water, <2,000lbs and fat, low tread tires @ 50 mph.
Within 1/2 to 1 second I was looking at the guard rail moving left to right across the field of view (what there was of it) and I had full left lock correction in and I was slightly past 90 degrees. The car had just started a ccw rotation and was back to about 60-70 degress from straight when I believe I felt it grab and lurch into the rail. Impact was hard and about 30 degrees off perpendicular. As I saw what looked the rail slam into me I just couldn't believe it. From the initial downpour to destruction was seconds!! I hit a verticle upright first. This was fortunate as the front of the car would have fit under the horizontal. The verticle was displaced about 10"- 12" and the horizontal had no visible damage or paint transfer at point of impact. If the verticle had not been pushed back you would not have known there was an impact. The holding bolts were ripped out. Car spun clockwise once?? against the rail and end up about 50 feet from first impact with right rear against rail and what was left of the front pointing slightly back to traveling lane. The windshield was broken at the lower right corner, doors were displaced from shock but not hit and all four corners were crunched or gone. Hazzards were stuck on.
What were my other options? I considered crossing the controls and trying to spin the car back onto the main roadway. I do not know if anyone was behind me at that point. Probably moot as the time from start of rotation to impact was 1 to 2 seconds max. I may have hit the brakes hard just before impact in hopes of breaking traction and sliding in the direction of primary momentum. At that point probably more harm than good. Finally, downshift and break rear away?? Don't know if I considered that at the time. Given the rate of progression may have just added energy to impact.
I hit the driver's side door/window fairly hard but no serious damage. Slight bruise on upper left of forehead. Lower back and neck have been a bit sore since, but no indication at the time. No airbag deployment. Car did not deccelerate rapidly enough in the front to back axis of car (Andy Plant, Lotus Cars, GA). Anyway, kicked the door open and basically walked away. Nice young couple (cannot believe I said that) stopped and called it in. Pretty much everything in the car and trunk that could break did. San Pellagrino, CDs, spare glasses, etc... Talked to the paramedicas but declined treatment as I was in no pain (not always good to diagnose yourself, shock you know?) and in no mood to deal with a hospital. I did check in with my internist and do lower back exercises prescibed. Car basically did it's job by shredding and bleeding off all that energy. There was Lotus all over the place. Crash structure demolished. The state trooper was pissed. I was standing over what was left of my car with a silly grin on my face because I was, again, walking away. Cat's got nothing on me.
Anyway, I welcome honest comments and critiques as I keep running through this looking for a successful solution and it's getting old. I've been driving high performance cars all my life (I'M 56) and never wrecked one while pushing it at the track or back country twisties. I've slid and spun but never hit anyone anything or flipped one. I don't push cars in traffic or intentionally drive past my vision. I am a skilled driver, aggressive but competent, least I think so. All my bad crashes have been surprises under what, from the outside, looked like relatively mild conditions. Drunk driver came across center once and just creamed me in one of my Alfas in a big ole GMC truck. If it wasn't for bad luck........
Thanks
A:
What tires did you have? AD07's?
A:
A048s. Again they were fine in the wet just not deep water at 50 mph. It may be hard to visualize, but the conditions went from light rain to extremely heavy rain and high gusting winds literally in seconds. Not an excuse, that's just what happened.
One assumes it could have had a better outcome, maybe not. Walking away may have been the best result. Wouldn't have asked if I was sure. Sometimes I think if I had let go of all controls...??? I used to fly high performance sailplanes that were light on instruments. If you got caught in cloud or other poor visability and got in trouble, letting go of the controls would allow the plane to establish a benign spiral and keep you from over controlling (assauming you weren't in a flat spin or something). Don't know if that might translate to cars sometimes.?
For the record, before leaving on that trip I checked all four tires, none were to wear bars and I set pressures for a long, hot trip. Grip was excellent for the 400 + miles prior to the storm. The tires no doubt had a role, but were not the primary cause.
A:
These things happen. You have to stop beating yourself up about it. Pretty much the only thing you could have done was to drive slower in the first place, but there's no way you could have anticipated this happening. Just forget it. It wasn't your fault.
A:
Sh*t happens, not your fault. Did you get another Elise?
FWIW, though, having driven both the 48s and the 07s, I would never drive on 48s in the rain--never never never. They scare the crap out of me, because they lose grip in standing water so very easily. They also are trecherous on wet roads with off camber turns-trust me, I nearly lost my first Elise that way.
Given you were in standing water in the ruts, well, .....again, not your fault and I'm not placing blame. But I swear by the 07s on the street. I have an LSS LSD Elise, and I went and got base wheels for use with AD07s. The 48s are probably a great tire for the weekend driver/occasional closed circuit folks. Me, I prefer a real race tire for the track and a real street tire for the street.
A:
I had about 50% left on my A-048's when I was heading down to Fla once. Similar circumstance, out of nowhere the skies just let loose. Long straight just south of Gainesville (wildwood area?). heavy trucks had the roads grooved, all the water went to the grooves, so did my Elise. In less than 5 seconds (I was heading south toward the storm as it was heading north) the front end just lifted and started a nice rotation. Probably 50/50 luck/countering and I brought it back in line in traffic though I was nearly in the next lane, cut it from the roughly 50 that I was doing down to about 30 for the next mile then the skies cleared up and I kept going. Once those tires were worn out I went with a set of Kumho's and while I know they can still hydroplane, they do handle water a LOT better. Remember, there is only around 600-650lbs (correct me if I'm wrong) or so on the front of that car which is not a heck of a lot to keep traction in heavy rains!
I got lucky, unfortunately you didn't.. and next time it may well be me. Even my old '88 Supercharged MR2 never did that to me!
A:
Get another Elise... fast!
The way I see it, this is a part of the learning experience, nothing else. It makes you that much of a better driver. I'd ride with you over some other 56 year old guy any day.
luke
A:
I think I've stopped beating myself up. Just finally posting it helped. I don't feel at faullt as I wasn't doing anything wrong, maybe just didn't do something right?
The immediate reaction was sort of funny (odd/humerous). Just, WTF, another one bites the dust; how am I going to get home? I was 450 miles out. Really not quite that cavalier, but also wasn't terribly bent. I lost my emotional attachment to cars when I sat in what was left of a nice Alfa for 45 mins as the fire depatment cut me out. (drunk crossed center, head on from truck)
Have not replaced the Elise yet. Need to follow through on selling two or three old Alfas first.
Have seen some really tempting cars though. ie Crownsville, MD
Thanks a gain for the comments
A:
My A048's are near the wear bars in front. I drove them through the Zion, Bryce and Canyonlands in Utah during some bad downpours. I held it to 35-40 max, mostly 30ish. Even at that, I could feel the road slipping out from under me. My rear tires are Khumos A/S tires. I wore out the rear A048s a long time ago. I'll put Khumos on the front soon.
You know, I was cleaning carpets in my house the other day. I was wearing near new clean Nikes-great tread. I stepped off the carpet onto the hardwood floor and BLAMMO! Down I went. I hydroplaned at home.
Minor corrections in a slide will pull traction, or what there is of it, back sooner than overcorrecting. Just like with flying; better to pull-out than stall.
A:
If it were me: I would get another Elise.
The extreme amount of detail in your story suggests this incident is really getting inside your head; you're trying to make rational sense of an event that transpired over just a few seconds and was affected by countless variables you'll never really know. All that, plus eyewitness testimony is unreliable. You might think you did and experienced all of the above, but only a tape playback would prove it out. So don't stress over the unknowable. Give yourself a mental break and move on.
But I am compelled to call out one statement: "All my bad crashes have been surprises under what, from the outside, looked like relatively mild conditions."
If you mean to say you periodically crash your cars and it's been your fault (i.e., not the other guys, like in your Alfa crash example), well then... if it were me, I would take that as a wake-up call to reevaluate my ways.
About four years ago I was doing the proverbial "spirited driving" through some twisty roads in the Santa Cruz mountains. At one point I got just a bit too aggresive and missed an apex and was forced to drive over the double yellow line. Nothing bad happened -- no cars were coming the other way -- but it taught me that my speed level for public driving just wasn't socially acceptable. Or wise for me and my car.
So I would say get an Elise and drive it quite modestly on the street and wait for the track/autocross to push it. That's what I do now. All that plus, accept the fact that this car is a completely different beast in even borderline conditions.
A:
The first thing that comes to mind is, was this the first heavy rain after a dry spell? If it hadn't rained in awhile, a road will accumulate a film of oil. Since this section of road had grooves, it may have served to trap oil that would not wash away from smaller rainstorms. When a large storm finally hit, all of that accumulated oil was liberated to the surface.
A:
Hi Guys
You need to remember the Elise is a very light car and will aquaplane very easily. I guess in Britain we have lost more than 200 cars in this fashion.
Not too much you can do to be honest, some tyres are worse than others but at the end of the day speed is the only usefull control you have.
Just take it slow in the rain, makes driving in the dry more fun later.
Gaz
A:
Originally Posted by Gaz
Hi Guys
You need to remember the Elise is a very light car and will aquaplane very easily. I guess in Britain we have lost more than 200 cars in this fashion.
Not too much you can do to be honest, some tyres are worse than others but at the end of the day speed is the only usefull control you have.
Just take it slow in the rain, makes driving in the dry more fun later.
Gaz
For this reason, I use Michelin Pilot Exalto PE2s on the street. They come in LSS sizes too!
Although, I wish it had a little bit more dry traction. I'm comtemplating going to Hankook Ventus Z212 the next time around.
A:
Originally Posted by 67veloce
Within 1/2 to 1 second I was looking at the guard rail moving left to right across the field of view (what there was of it) and I had full left lock correction in and I was slightly past 90 degrees. The car had just started a ccw rotation and was back to about 60-70 degress from straight when I believe I felt it grab and lurch into the rail.
Hi John, truly sorry for your loss. I just got mine back from a (superb) body shop after being the 10,349,763rd Elise to get backed over by a #*ck!ng truck. Back just in time to take it to Texas for the LOG. Sunday night on the way to the hotel for the track days (events were over 50 miles apart) drove mine on AD07s through torrential rain and rutted concrete Texas Interstate. Felt as if I were skating for twenty miles and could well have had an incident just like yours -- accompanied by the hundreds of Texas pickup trucks and SUVs surrounding me.
The following day (first of two at the track) we learned that the Elise is not a wet weather champ by going out and learning the "wet line" by doing some similar skating. It had quit raining a couple of hours before and I made maybe 3-4 laps before I finally spun the student's car I was driving, also on AD07s. Absolutely no warning and complete loss of control -- didn't even take standing water to loop us. Happened at about 25-30 MPH on a part of the track that I'd successfully "skated" on for the previous laps. We went 'round 180 degrees and came to a stop facing the wrong way. Never left the pavement. "In a spin, both feet in" (meaning clutch and brake to the floor).
Might have saved you. (Might not.) FWIW, I'm the guy who is the subject of the infamous photo circulating the 'net, sitting in the wreckage of my first Lotus -- a Europa in '71 -- after an accident frighteningly similar to yours. (pic below) You might wonder how I walked away (literally) from the crash. The pic was taken the following day where the wreckage had been dropped. I still have the steering wheel. (Let's have no comments on the hair, 'stache, or clothing.)
My message? Get another one -- soon. Life is 'way too short to let the loss of the car keep you from enjoying another.
A:
#1. A048 tires are dang near slicks. I don't care if they're down to the wear bars or brand new. And their hydroplaning ability is completely unrelated to their temperature or age of the compound.
#2. The fact is that that you've got about 400lbs on each front tire. At 26psi that's a contact patch of about 15 square inches per tire. You've got a fat-assed water ski with a 400lb rider on it, and 50mph is dang sure enough speed to lift him. For a relative example, look at your average Honda Accord LX. There's about 1000lbs on each front tire, and a MUCH better treaded tire for the ran also. It stands to reason that an Elise with A048s will hydroplane at about 20% (just a guess, but its reasonable) the speed that the Accord would on the same puddle of water.
#3. The only thing you could do was just REALISE how easy these cars hydroplane, and as soon as you realized the downpoor was coming, you should have slowed to TEN MPH! You said you saw it coming.
A:
In heavy rain, you will hydroplane even on brand new AD07s. The car is too light to drive freeway speed in heavy rain. On A048s, the car is undriveable.
At least you are ok. That is all that really matters. Good luck to you, and hope you get another car. Don't beat yourself up about it. Lessons learned.
A:
Not much you can do when a light car with wide dry biased tyres hydroplanes.
BTDT, in a 1300Lb 7clone with 205 50 15 Kumho victoracers worn past the wear bars....what a rush! when it hydroplanes.
The quaife softens the toss though.
m