A&Q about Lotus
Q:
Perhaps this is like asking a girl if she has STDs first?
No, wait, this is not like asking. It is more like demanding that she take a test.
A:
Originally Posted by Dietrich
Perhaps this is like asking a girl if she has STDs first?
No, wait, this is not like asking. It is more like demanding that she take a test.
Seems like one would worry if the seller refused to show it or allow the potential buyer to download it. (Sort of like not allowing the potential buyer to have a qualified mechanic look over the vehicle, no?)
A:
Unless I knew the owner and car, I wouldn't buy one w/o it. Why do you think Lotus put the telemetry recorder in them to begin with.
A:
Absolutely. I would walk from a possible purchase if the seller balked at sharing ECU data...I would also require a full vehicle inspection, at my expense, by a Lotus certified mechanic.
It is a business transaction...not sharing of affection.
A:
The buyer has the right to not buy the car.
What other right does he need?
A:
Originally Posted by Dietrich
Perhaps this is like asking a girl if she has STDs first?
If you were paying $30,000 - $40,000 for the girl then you'd probably want to know....
Seems like the only reason you wouldn't provide the dump information is if you have something to hide.
A:
Originally Posted by Shaggy
If you were paying $30,000 - $40,000 for the girl then you'd probably want to know....
Seems like the only reason you wouldn't provide the dump information is if you have something to hide.
They test prostitutes in Nevada...
A:
If the car is being sold with the Lotus warranty and the Lotus warranty can be voided because of information in the ECU, then an ECU dump should be provided.
A:
Originally Posted by RegGuy
If the car is being sold with the Lotus warranty and the Lotus warranty can be voided because of information in the ECU, then an ECU dump should be provided.
If the buyer asks to see you dance in your underwear, you can either agree to the request, or find another buyer.
"Should" has nothing to do with it.
A:
You definitely don't have to allow the ECU dump... in fact you don't have to allow a test drive, you don't even have to let them start up the motor to ensure it runs. But you have to be willing to accept that what people are willing to pay is based on what information they're able to gather on the vehicle. And if you're wont let them see some basic information i'd MIGHT be willing to pay $5k less than if i could see the history and it looked good. but that's assuming a motor or a tranny cost that much... which means probably more like 10k less. I'd assume it's got no warrantee and that the car has had the $hit tracked out of it.
I'd never buy a mercedes without checking the service history (which is "public" information) because there are some good ones and there are some nasty lemons that just never got titled as such.
A:
Originally Posted by FlyLo
If the buyer asks to see you dance in your underwear, you can either agree to the request, or find another buyer.
"Should" has nothing to do with it.
That's just silly. Of course you don't have to do anything. Here's the car, like it, buy it. You don't have to negotiate, you don't have to do anything except give them the title when they give you the cash instrument.
That's why I said should, not have to. Let's not play semantic games.
A:
Originally Posted by Dietrich
Perhaps this is like asking a girl if she has STDs first?
No, wait, this is not like asking. It is more like demanding that she take a test.
Nope, nor do they have the right to buy your car. If you want to sell it, you should offer up proof you are free from std's...
'Greg
A:
Speaking in generalities, not just Lotus Elise.....
Frankly I know people who don't race their cars and yet treat them like crap. Not only do they not race them, but don't drive them spiritedly. They barely wash them. Barely maintain them. Go far too long on oil changes because they can't do it themselves or they're trying to save money. They don't know too much about driving or cars and as such are harder on the tranny and clutch with constant slipping etc.
Download their ECU and see what it says.....it'll probably say it's been babied. SCORE! I found a sweet Lotus that has been babied! Right?
I know people who autocross/track cars, probably have some clutch dumps on their car, maybe some high revs this car is DRIVEN...BAD car right? Same people know how to drive the car. Treat the car like the well oiled machine that it is. Maintain the car impeccably. Use the best of the best in fluids and parts. Look the car over constantly like a "pre flight" on an airplane for any problems and keep everything in tip top shape. Do a ECU dump on that car, see that it's been launched at high RPM. BAAAD LOTUS! I won't be buying this car!
I think you just need to go with your gut feeling, owner talk, general mechanical inspection and otherwise just let it go.
A:
Does the buyer have to see the dump? No.
Will most people buy one without seeing a dump? No.
If the seller won't let me see a dump then they have something to hide and I most definatly wouldn't buy the car.
A:
It seems this "dump" phenomenon is a Lotus only thing? I've never heard of people asking for ECU dumps off of cars before. It seems to have turned into a bit of a hysteria here though.
I disagree that someone unwilling to provide an ecu printout has something to hide.
If someone asked me for the ECU dump from my car I'd probably tell them they can do it themselves, primarily because I live 7 hours from the dealer.
A:
onefastlotus... i agree, it's not the sellers responsibility. Might be nice showing the initiative in the interest of full disclosure, but i would expect to pay for it just as i should expect to have a mechanic look at it. For example, if someone said, yeah, i autocrossed it a few times and took it to the track, but here's all my service receipts, here's my sECU dump, and these are the fancy fluids i used, etcetera... i agree, you've got indications that the car was well cared for and nothings being hidden.
This would be a matter of what people consider "normal"... i could see it being different in different places. In california the seller is legally responsible for it passing smog, but many times cars are sold as is, and the buyer does it.
A:
Originally Posted by OneFastLotus
It seems this "dump" phenomenon is a Lotus only thing? I've never heard of people asking for ECU dumps off of cars before. It seems to have turned into a bit of a hysteria here though.
I disagree that someone unwilling to provide an ecu printout has something to hide.
If someone asked me for the ECU dump from my car I'd probably tell them they can do it themselves, primarily because I live 7 hours from the dealer.
I think a lot of this comes from tales of warranty claims being denied after the ECU data is checked. When you couple that with the familiar assertion (which I happen to agree with) that the car will allow you to exceed the "allowable" RPM on the way up (versus a missed shift), I can understand wanting to know the information as part of the transaction.
I wouldn't take ECU data as the only piece of information about the purchase, but I do think I'd ask for it and I'd be less inclined to buy an Elise where reasonable accommodation to provide it wasn't offered.
A:
Originally Posted by OneFastLotus
It seems this "dump" phenomenon is a Lotus only thing? I've never heard of people asking for ECU dumps off of cars before. It seems to have turned into a bit of a hysteria here though.
the biggest difference is the warrenty tied to the dump. that warrenty is worth something to both the buyer and the seller, and if its worthless, totally effects both parties.
name another car mfg with a warrenty tied to an ecu dump?
A:
+1 with onefastlotus on both posts.
i live 250 miles round trip from my dealer, andsome buyers expected not to pay for my time or the dump or anything. I didnt have the dump done, and the buyer of my car got a nicely cared for machine. the whole ICU/warrantee thing ruined this car in so many ways.(many but not all) people seem to cherish their (percieved) warranty more than the actual car itself. if I could do it over again i would have run mine in timed events at the track also. i passed on that as it would have voided the warranty, yet it was OK to run the HPDE, at the same intensity as time trials where you were grouped in a class, and ran timed hot laps as competition.
again, I dont miss the lotus for that very reason, not to mention the spec miata i can just throw a jack under it anywhere on track day and boom!!!! it off the groud and ready to be worked on. oh yeah, the cheap parts are great too.
If someone REALLY wants a great deal on these cars, just wait until a few months after the(percieved) warranty period runs out on the car. from the sound of it, the car wont be worth over $20K time will tell
Fishguy
A:
Originally Posted by ksdaoski
the biggest difference is the warrenty tied to the dump.
name another car mfg with a warrenty tied to an ecu dump?
BMW and Volvo to name two. I've heard stories about BMW's losing warranties over ECU downloads especially regarding standing starts. In fact one such event happened locally. However.. I've not heard of a mania on BMW boards with getting a download before purchase. Ditto with Volvo.