A&Q about Lotus
Q:
the winter projects thread got me thinking...
do people still put their car on blocks during the winter, or is that overkill? i was planning on putting it up and keeping the wheels inside during the winter months (I know yokohama says to keep the ad07's from freezing, so i assume its probably good to keep the a048's from freezing too)
makes for a good theft deterrant too
i assume its still good to run the motor to operating temp once a month too? forgive me, haven't needed to "store" a car for the winter before
A:
Storage? Novel concept... I keep her in the garage in the winter, under a couple of covers. Battery charger attached; I learned the hard way last year. On nice days when the road is clear of most of the snow and related junk she's out driving. In this weather, when she's the daily driver, she's left in the driveway with her covers on at night.
A:
Originally Posted by karajabola
the winter projects thread got me thinking...
do people still put their car on blocks during the winter, or is that overkill? i was planning on putting it up and keeping the wheels inside during the winter months (I know yokohama says to keep the ad07's from freezing, so i assume its probably good to keep the a048's from freezing too)
makes for a good theft deterrant too
i assume its still good to run the motor to operating temp once a month too? forgive me, haven't needed to "store" a car for the winter before
I thought it was the A048s that had the major problem with the cold, not the AD07s.
I've always heard that running the engine for its own sake is not a good idea when storing the car (taking it out for an occasional run is beneficial though (but not if up on blocks!)
There's a section in the manual on storage, BTW.
A:
Born and raised in Chicago I can relate, but that's why I moved to Southern California. My winter storage is just putting the hard top on.
A:
Originally Posted by Tyger
I thought it was the A048s that had the major problem with the cold, not the AD07s
i'm sure the grip is horrible in the cold, but according to yokohama, it seems more is going on, perhaps permanent damagegoto pick the neova tire doesn't say ad07 next to it anymore)choose the technical info, it says for them to remain over 14 deg Fif you choose the a048's its says nothing, not sure why.
A:
Originally Posted by karajabola i'm sure the grip is horrible in the cold, but according to yokohama, it seems more is going on, perhaps permanent damagegoto pick the neova tire (doesn't say ad07 next to it anymore)choose the technical info, it says for them to remain over 14 deg Fif you choose the a048's its says nothing, not sure why.
The AO48s are not supposed to be used or stored below 14F (-10C). Evidently they reach their "glass state" at that temperature. I have not heard of a similar warning for the AD07s, although it seems clear you'd want to change them out for snow tires if it gets that cold where you live.
Do you suppose Yoko and its dsitrubutors ship their tires in heated trucks in the wintertime?
A:
DO NOT STORE A CAR "UP ON BLOCKS"!
Was that loud and strong enough? Many, many, many years ago (before radial tires), tires would develop flat sports when left parked for long periods of time, essentially ruining the tires. They doesn't do that any more. Any flat spotting will go away after the tires are driven and warmed up.
Storing a car with the suspension "drooping" can/will destroy the suspension bushings. Suspension bushings are made of rubber bonded between two metal sleeves. The outside sleeve is usually a press fit into the suspension arm, while the inside is clamped by the suspension mounting bolt to the chassis. The sleeves do not rotate in their mounts. All suspension motion is permitted by the flexing of the rubber between the metal sleeves. Normal ride height is the "relaxed" position of the metal. When the suspension moves up or down, the rubber twists - again this is normal. However, when lifting a car off the ground with the wheels/suspension "drooping", the rubber bushings twist to their maximum amount - leaving them in this position will tend to damage the rubber, and even cause the rubber to separate from the metal sleeves in the worst case (I've had it happen on a long term restoration project).
Bottom line is, tires no longer permanently flat spot, and even if they do, replacing the tires is cheaper and simpler than replacing the suspension bushings.
A:
Last winter we hit sub-zero temps a few times, and I feared for my tires. But the AO48's held their own...or held together anyway. I did not attempt driving of course, but they were ok just sitting in the cold air.
A:
this gets interesting. so for people like me who live winter climate, yokohama recommends keeping the tires warm, but putting the car on blocks causes strain on the bushings.
what to do.
A:
From Page 119 in the Owners Handbook:
Winter Tires
If the car is to be used in very cold territories, or
driven on snow covered roads, it is recommended to fit a
car set of winter Tires developed specifically for such
conditions. Lotus approves the use of Pirelli 210 (front)
and 240 (rear) Snowsport winter Tires in sizes specified
in Technical Data. These Tires should be fitted on regular
Elise wheels.
I would put on a set of these for the winter if it will be sitting in cold temps. Then you could store the other tires in the house. I am in upstate NY but my garage never gets much colder than 30 degrees. I plan on leaving the Yoko's on for the winter storage.
A:
i guess i could buy some square-shaped tires then since they won't be turning. ever.
or maybe i'll just put a thermometer in the garage this winter to see how cold it actually gets.
*edit* does anyone know the BCD of the elise wheels? (bolt-circle diameter)
A:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
DO NOT STORE A CAR "UP ON BLOCKS"!
...
I'm glad I only had it up for a month and a half (it was a mild winter here in Minnesota). I took that opportunity to clean and condition all the exposed parts. The car had NO wheels on it and was supported by jack stands and hockey pucks.
I took off all the under pans and got all the rocks out of the nooks and crannies cleaned all the parts. Replaced a few of the bolts/screws that were showing rust and conditioned all the rubber parts that I could see.
The suspension areas get quite filthy being that they're hidden mostly up under wheel liners almost entirely.
I'll certainly leave the car on the ground this winter.
A:
Originally Posted by karajabola
this gets interesting. so for people like me who live winter climate, yokohama recommends keeping the tires warm, but putting the car on blocks causes strain on the bushings.
what to do.
It does seem a catch 22 unless you buy winter rubber for it ... or find training wheels to put the car on over the winter months. Last year I kept my garage heated but I wasn't going to do that this year.
A:
Anyone tried one of these?
I was thinking of getting one - nothing to do with "cold" storage - just keeping the car nicely dehumidified.
I have no connection with the company but they are based near where I used to live in the UK and I've exchanged some mails about availability.
Don't bother trying the US agent site - it's no longer active.
To make up for that they are offering a deal on transport direct from the UK.
If there's enough interest I guess we could negotiate some kind of bulk deal.
Any thoughts anyone?
A:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
DO NOT STORE A CAR "UP ON BLOCKS"!
Was that loud and strong enough? Many, many, many years ago (before radial tires), tires would develop flat sports when left parked for long periods of time, essentially ruining the tires. They doesn't do that any more. Any flat spotting will go away after the tires are driven and warmed up.
Storing a car with the suspension "drooping" can/will destroy the suspension bushings. Suspension bushings are made of rubber bonded between two metal sleeves. The outside sleeve is usually a press fit into the suspension arm, while the inside is clamped by the suspension mounting bolt to the chassis. The sleeves do not rotate in their mounts. All suspension motion is permitted by the flexing of the rubber between the metal sleeves. Normal ride height is the "relaxed" position of the metal. When the suspension moves up or down, the rubber twists - again this is normal. However, when lifting a car off the ground with the wheels/suspension "drooping", the rubber bushings twist to their maximum amount - leaving them in this position will tend to damage the rubber, and even cause the rubber to separate from the metal sleeves in the worst case (I've had it happen on a long term restoration project).
Bottom line is, tires no longer permanently flat spot, and even if they do, replacing the tires is cheaper and simpler than replacing the suspension bushings.
Info from a tire guy:
I am not sure if I agree with all of Tim's comments although I have no intention of refuting his past experience. I dont mean to offend anybody, but here is my 2 cents.
Modern radial tires can and do still flatspot. Any tire that has nylon in it is specifically prone. Cap plies or cap strips are typically made of nylon. High perf tires almost always have cap plies in order to meet the high speed requirements of the application. The tires usually say the materials right on the side (1 ply polyester, 2 plies steel, 1 ply nylon). In practice, the flat spot that is generated from overnight storage (or longer) comes out when the tire heats back up during normal driving. However, there is still a small portion of the flatspot left that is hopefully below the magnitude that you can feel while driving. On some tires and vehicle combinations, the vehicle is so sensitive that the flatspots never gets small enough and are always noticable. If I remember correctly, the owners manual says you should overinflate the tires for extended storage. This is to stiffen the carcass of the tire and reduce the deflection and corresponding flatspot. All that being said, I dont know what is in the tire construction because I havent looked. I assume the Yokes have nylon cap plies but dont know for sure. I have the base tires and have not yet felt any flatspotting. I intend on keeping my tires off the ground this winter to avoid any problems.
Modern rubber bushings are some of the most durable parts on a car (considering the amount of abuse that they take). I agree with Tim that the machanism exist to cause their failure, but I dont agree that they would actually fail from letting the suspension droop. Considering that the Elise has very limited droop travel means that they wont experience much deflection. You could always store the car wheel-less with the wishbones sitting on wood blocks. I will probably do this. Just remember to support the car directly under the ball joints so you dont put bending stresses on the wishbones.
I think that the low temp recommendations for the tires is being misunderstood. All rubber products have a glass transition point where the rubber gets brittle and quits acting like rubber. High perf tires are compounded to withstand high temps at the expense of low temp glass transition temp. I think the fear with low temps is that flexing the tires while below the transition temp could cause the rubber to crack......not that they will crack on their own just because they get cold. I dont think that storing the tires in the cold is the problem...it is flexing them when cold that is the problem. I will check with our racing guys and report back.
A:
Originally Posted by UKphil
Anyone tried one of these?
I was thinking of getting one - nothing to do with "cold" storage - just keeping the car nicely dehumidified.
With a cost of only 2pence per day to run how could I NOT afford one hehehe, sorry just laughing a bit at the market-speak. It's interesting but how would it keep a car warm? Or the humidity out? Is it really a perfect seal? Being a Minnesotan winter is one of the least humid times of year.
A:
Here' s another.
A:
OK, I stand corrected. Below is from one of our race tire guys.
We have seen cases over the years where tires exposed to freezing temperatures have developed cracks, especially in shipping. We have always assumed that the cracks come from vibrations causing tire deflection while the tires are stacked up in transit.
I have to say that I agree with Lotus on this one. Especially if the tires are stored on the wheel, the weight of the wheel might be enough to deflect the tire enough to crack in sub-zero temperatures."
Keep in mind that he is referring to sub zero temps, not just freezing. I guess I will store mine inside to be safe.
A:
So ... the Yoko tires shouldnt be subject to below freezing temperatures. In unheated garages all over the northern United States they would certainly be subject to this. Yet it might not be a great thing to store the car on blocks as to stress the suspension bushings etc. If it were possible to support the car by the load-bearing portions of the suspension it could be the ideal silver bullet to storing the Elise in the winter in a sub-zero garage.
I just got a fantastic idea for a product. Now to see if it exists.