A&Q about Lotus
Q:
Originally Posted by Casey@ForcedFed
I would love to see you build a better kit yourself ...(I know it will end up costing much more.....if you could even get your kit integrated into the vehicle as seamlessly as the FF kit).
C2gas did a 2zz turbo if between 3,000 and 5,000.
And I thought that the justification for price was the tuning not the spatial constraints. I know a guy who bends pipes pretty well.... The tubing and clamps are the least expensive part of the set up around 200 dollars retail. Then comes the part when you get the paper and cardboard out and have to fit it all. 7,000 dollars worth of work? Not in my opinion.
In all honesty I am glad you guys offer a product that people like and are building a reputation around your company. We just have different opinons about the price point. Afterall, no one in the Celica world would pay 25K for 340 crank hp. That is more than the cost of their car. The ones who have spent that much had dedicated race motors and drag/road race.
A:
Originally Posted by xziteme
deddie-
Do you need to worry much when its time to pass smog and the visual inspection here in Cali? Or, no worries as long as a discretely placed benjamin is involved.
How about getting pulled over and asked to open the engine lid? I don't think a discretely placed benjamin can help out on this one.
Passing smog should not be an issue. I will leave it at that.
The last cop that pulled me over commented that Italians make nice cars (he was referring to my car). I am assuming that if he asked to see under the hood (after I re-direct him from the front of the car to the rear) that he would not know that my car was not stock. It looks very clean and stock.
A:
Originally Posted by Mean TT
Where should I begin...
1. The greddy kit is proven on the 2zz which is essentially what the Tri-point kit is. The turbo is not. Look it up and you will see the reliability of the SC. I do know it and it has been posted for years with a track record.
2. The aftercooler is an upgrade like the 340 kit from FF so are the pullys. The difference? Not spending 25K
3. The cost that FF is asking is simply silly! I mean out of this world! 25K for a built motor? Are you freaking kidding me. Look at the 4g63 or anything else....Heck, you can buy a new LS7 for 14K-new and that includes Forged everything x 8 pistons!
I could give websites all day long wo show engine builders and they cost of motors, but here is one you will love: a stroked 4g63 shortblock for $3250. Forged pistons, balanced and blueprinted etc etc and PROVEN reilaibilty with the potential for over 600 HP dyno tested and verified by a lot of people.
https://secure.buschurracing.com/cat...1f80b6890dea00
It is out of this world, and to put blinders on and pretend that they aren't overcharging is terrible. You are encouraging price gouging. Give me a break about not skimping money, anyone who would willing part with 25K for a build motor from a celica needs a punch in the face. I know some people feel it is a good idea, but its not. Sheesh! Someone is getting RICH!!!
I do agree that it is good to have options which is what I am saying. Evaluate options, use comparitive analysis, and do your homework.
I am not going to debate with you about the reliability of an eaton blower versus a turbo....What I can say is while the Greddy kit has been reliable on the celica, that doesn't mean it will be on the elise. The blower or turbo does not create the reliability issues....it's the tuning of whatever engine management system is controlling said system. Greddy uses an emanage while Tripoint uses an exede(with custom tuning) and in my opinion there are not enough cars running with the tripoint system for extended periods of time to create a valid reliability model.
Oh...the 340 kit is not just a built motor...25k for a motor ...come on. That is a complete turn key package..Built long block(GE sleeves..Crower rods..weisco pistons..eibach valve springs..balanced & bluprinted..performance valve job..head studs main studs ..oil pump..all gaskets..correct valve adjustment...moroso pan)...clutch..turbo kit...upgraded turbo(28rs instead of the 28r)...gauges..accusump..boost control..INSTALLATION...custom tuning with multuple maps
Think what you want....none of us are getting"rich"
A:
All I can say is my time is worth money. Yes, I could try to piece this and that together and save dollars here and there but I'm glad to have FF and Tripoint availabe with reliable, complete packages... even if they were to get rich.
Casey, If I fly down to 'Frisco, is a 275 package car generally available to drive?
A:
Originally Posted by slaughtr
All I can say is my time is worth money. Yes, I could try to piece this and that together and save dollars here and there but I'm glad to have FF and Tripoint availabe with reliable, complete packages... even if they were to get rich.
Casey, If I fly down to 'Frisco, is a 275 package car generally available to drive?
Possibly...our shop car has evolved into a 380...but I might be able to set up a ride in a customers vehicle.
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I know alot of people who "bend pipes"....but I only know one person that can build parts of this quality.
A:
Originally Posted by Mean TT
Up it gies without saying, Tripoint sc is 50% of the cost and 90% of the power with proven reliability and easily upgradable. I don't know what frank has spent on his car but I thikn he is pushing 270 whp on 91 octane. Yes he had custom work done, but the FF kits are terribly expensive for what they are...and the Unichip is a flintstone invention-been around for a long long time. I would think that knowing that the ECU disables power through its learning function you would want something that addresses that....in any case. Only the Tri point ecu solution does that. And you can have yo car back in three days...
I still have yet to see a dyno of a 340 kit, and is that pump gas they run, or a mix? For 25 thousand dollars I would want to know. P.S. you can build a 2zz through a reputable motor shop for a lot less than what FF charges for theirs, the weisco pistons are all the same-8.8 compression ratio.
Here you go...340 kit...California 91 craptane conservative streetable tune.
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Oh...here's another good one...sport 275 kit vs greddy supercharger..
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Sorry guys....I'm kind of on a roll today.
So if the tripoint kit costs 6500...then you add a header....then you add an exhaust..then you add an intake...you end up at $8500-9500....so I don't quite see why everyone thinks our kit is so out of the ball park when our kit already includes all of that. The majority of et members will spend $800-2400 on an arqray on an exhaust sytem...it's just a muffler and and tips yet I dont see everyone ripping on their prices.
A:
Casey:
If I decide to purchase your kit, do you have any authorize installer of your kit in the north east area? I am located in NYC
thanks
A:
You're absolutely right Casey - the costs are not different, and when you get into the high power conversions it's just downright expensive no matter what you do. Turbo, SC, NA, it's expensive. Then you've got harnesses, bars, suspension, clutches, flywheels, pads, wheels, oil pans, etc. And yeah, after the install at Tripoint, I got your street headers, bypass pipe, the Fajita, etc. It's directly in the neighborhood of costs of the FF 275. Like I've been saying forever, there are two options, very good ones. If anyone is near FF it's a no brainer, go with the shop you can drive up to quickly, there's no better way.
Then we've got people like Dave who flew Reggie out, that's cool too since the kit works. Up to a certain point it IS about the tune, and above that point it's about covering your ass with parts that can handle it. People shouldn't be attacking FF or the Tripoint kit because at least IMHO they both are great great solutions. For me it came down to them being in my town, the linearity (not that the 275 isn't), the sound, and the way I wanted to drive.
A:
Casey,
You hit it right on the head. For those that have done some research they will all agree that your cost is not out of line once you add up all the parts.
I am not a FF Customer (yet), but what you get for the $8200 is a complete package. Right now I need to find out how hard the DIY job is, if I can DIY then I will and bring it to you to tune and save some $$ on installation.
In the end I want what is best for the car at the best price. And if taking the rear clam off is difficult then I would just prefer to pay and have you do it.
Anyways, for what it is worth, I agree with you and the 275 kit.
As the the 340, impossible for me to state the value as I have not done any comparison shopping.
Rick
A:
Originally Posted by kaz
You're absolutely right Casey - the costs are not different, and when you get into the high power conversions it's just downright expensive no matter what you do. Turbo, SC, NA, it's expensive. Then you've got harnesses, bars, suspension, clutches, flywheels, pads, wheels, oil pans, etc. And yeah, after the install at Tripoint, I got your street headers, bypass pipe, the Fajita, etc. It's directly in the neighborhood of costs of the FF 275. Like I've been saying forever, there are two options, very good ones. If anyone is near FF it's a no brainer, go with the shop you can drive up to quickly, there's no better way.
Then we've got people like Dave who flew Reggie out, that's cool too since the kit works. Up to a certain point it IS about the tune, and above that point it's about covering your ass with parts that can handle it. People shouldn't be attacking FF or the Tripoint kit because at least IMHO they both are great great solutions. For me it came down to them being in my town, the linearity (not that the 275 isn't), the sound, and the way I wanted to drive.
Perfectly said....thanks
A:
Originally Posted by ryoung99
Casey,
You hit it right on the head. For those that have done some research they will all agree that your cost is not out of line once you add up all the parts.
I am not a FF Customer (yet), but what you get for the $8200 is a complete package. Right now I need to find out how hard the DIY job is, if I can DIY then I will and bring it to you to tune and save some $$ on installation.
In the end I want what is best for the car at the best price. And if taking the rear clam off is difficult then I would just prefer to pay and have you do it.
Anyways, for what it is worth, I agree with you and the 275 kit.
As the the 340, impossible for me to state the value as I have not done any comparison shopping.
Rick
It is not that hard to do it yourself...a few "speciality" tools are needed(rivet gun, right angle drill and cut off wheel) but it is not that bad. The clam does not have to be removed as most of the install is done through the wheel wells or under the vehicle.
A:
HeadStuds approx. 100-125 dollars
Main studs approx. 50-75
Rodbolts 40-50
Valves and retainers 250-350
Headwork 600-1750 (600 is MWR)
GT 28Rs 1175 SHIPPED GT28 900 Cost difference is 275 DOLLARS
Crower rods RETAIL 749.00
Weisco pistons RETAIL 569.00
Sleeves around 500.
Total:
3133 up to 4443 Plus the cost of sleeving which is not inconsequential. I threw up a huge number for head work, if anyone is paying mre than 1250 they are paying too much.
Balancing and bluepringint should be done on every engine build so it is not extra.
Even if you are spending 2500 to sleeve a motor you are charging 15000 to do it.
Other costs, like an oil pump for 200 guages for 180 a piece (defi) are incidental
I think I made my point, the cost of the components RETAIL is less than 5 thousand dollars yet the price difference is 15,000. It isn't about skimping out on money it is just a smart business move, milking the market for all its worth. I honestly can't beleive some people would think that it is even realistic.
As for the dyno numbers, Frank got 192 RWH NA, so you might want to check out MM to see some of his other dynos. He has dropped a lot of cash from what I understand, and even thoughe verything is custom and powdercoated and everything else, he still shops around for the best price. He was quoted 800 for cnc'd pullys...he paid 85 for a different vendor.
The person who started this post wanted a reason not to get FF, I think I have demonstrated it. All the ancillaries like headers, intakes, charge coolers can be purchased later or together, you can spend as you like and go faster as you feel comfortable with. Tri-point offers 90% of the performance at 50% of the price. If you want 300 hp they can deliver that too, but it won't cost anything close to 25K.
Off soap box.
Feel free to spend 25K if you want, there are a lot of other (better) ways to spend it. For the cost of a built shortblock (3000 dollars) frank could turn the wick way up on his motor, but has yet to do that.
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any installers in texas?
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about the tri point kit, I feel only 1 person who tracked the car isn't enough to prove reliability..
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What about Virginia?
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is there a set of self install instructions?
A:
Originally Posted by Imolas54
is there a set of self install instructions?
yes