A&Q about 350Z
Q:
Was out washing my car today and a guy pulled up next to me with a hunky black Mustang. I pulled into a berth and started to wash the car and then he goosed the gas in nuetral and it sounded pretty awesome. After I was done I went over to him and asked him what exhaust he had and he said it was a stock exhaust but he had somebody remove the CC.
I said well now your no longer street legal and he said that his tuner knew how to do something to the computer so when he gets the car inspected it will still pass. You ever hear of anything like this for the Z? Not that I would contribute to green house gas issues but it sure sounded good and it beats spending $1200 for an aftermarket exhaust system to get a more resonant tone and a couple hp.
2003 Redline Touring
A:
Hogwash. His "tuner" puts the cats back on for the test if he even has a "tuner".
A:
yea ive never heard anything like that
---------------------
03 CS Touring
VIN #189
A:
Wow, you have never lived in Louisiana, Miss. or Alabama have you?
Most of the old boys just run straights, no muffler. Really!
04.- P.WHITE-TOURING-AT.
1953 MGTD
BROWN FENDERS/CREAM BODY.
W/BROOKLAND RACING SCREENS.
Dixieland
A:
^^ new mexico and some parts of texas too
93 z32 convertible=pearl white, 5 speed
jwt pop-charger, hks hypers, asp underdrive pulley
86 z31 na=super white, 5 speed
A:
florida , no emisions here either.
A:
You cannot remove the cats and still pass emissions. If you don't have emissions, thats one thing... But no amount of tinkering with the ECU will allow a car to pass emissions without cats.
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
A:
i heard stuffing a towel in the intake would work , but it sounds like a bad idea .
A:
In the real world this is how that is done. Simple. Remove the cats and Install test pipes. You will notice a difference in sound as you sort of discussed. You will pick up some horse power. Reverse this procedure for emissions testing. With my APS twin turbo setup, the APS test pipes really enhance boost and work with the 2.5" exhaust and hi flow plenum snynergistically to double the power to the wheels. The sound is better too. Only a little louder, but a deeper rumble. All good! Why run low 14s/high 13s when mid 11 sec. qtrs. are where the FUN is?!? Sure there is some risk, but no guts, no glory. And the looks on the faces of owners of Mustang Surpecharged Cobras, Vipers, and Z06's as you pass and leave them like a bad habit in your 350Z... priceless! Just my HUMBLE opinion, he he.
Post Edited (Dec 31, 1:54pm)
A:
how much was your twin turbo? 7500?
A:
Yeah, the APS twin turbo kit like mine is $7490. It ain't cheap. But then again, blowin' by $80,000 Vipers is worth it to me, he he. I think you can get the APS single turbo for about $5800 if I remember correctly. You can get almost the same performance from the APS single turbo at the power levels I indicated. You'll get quicker response from the twins, though. The main reason to go with the twins over the single is if you want to build up the bottom end of the engine for the bigger power potential they have. The twins are smaller at 41 lbs. of air per minute each, but together they can put out 82 lbs of air per minute. Vs. 60 lbs per minute for the larger single T.
A:
Hey I didn't know you actually purchased and installed that twin turbo kit! Thats pretty cool. Congrats.
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
A:
does that include installation? where'd you have it done?
A:
Purchased, not installed yet. I know what they do though by several guys I know already boosting with the APS kit. I'm going to Genesis Racing Development (GRD) just outside Chicago, actually Naperville, for the install. For instance, Tuan at GRD is dynoing well over 500 hp at the wheels (over 600 hp at the engine) on stock 350Z egine internals. He has well over 20,000 miles at that power level with no problems. Probably more like 30,000 miles. I'll ask him how many miles now if I can remember. My install was delayed because it took longer to upgrade my auto tranny than expected. I am just waiting till some warmer temps and don't want to fight the Chi Town snow for the install. I plan to drive the car up, then fly back. Then a week or so later fly up and drive the car back after the install.
The install is $3000 for the twins. If I remember correctly, the single turbo is $5890 and the install is easier as well - costs something like $2,000. If you don't want to go to really big power, the single turbo has all the good supportive accessories and tuning of the twins and will save you some money.
I do want to inject a word of caution though. It costs more for a premiere APS dealer to do the install and tuning, but I know several guys who tried to do it themselves or took it to a non dealer to install to save money. Several ran into trouble that way with mistakes during the install. And you really need that fine tuning on a load based dyno to get the air fuel ratio and timing and boost right on the money across the whole rpm band.
JWT has a good turbo kit for our 350Zs, but puts out a bit less power. I'd still add a fuel return system, larger fuel injectors, larger oil pan with cooling vents, and an insulated crank angle sensor wire if I were going to go with JWT. Some will say that you can get by without those things that are already in the APS kit, at the lower power levels of the JWT kit, but I believe in spending extra money and being as bullet proof as possible.
I just know more than several guys I trust who have experience with all the kits, and they say APS is the flag ship and better engineered and more complete. Several of these guys are running Greddy Kits and wish they'd waited till the APS kit came out.
Post Edited (Dec 31, 4:06pm)
A:
i'm jealous.. good job, man.
A:
justinrhenry wrote:
> i'm jealous.. good job, man.
I'm telling you, you really ought to try it. I got hooked on turbo power while I had a 90' mitsu eclipse awd turbo that I upgraded with HKS parts. Even before I bought my 350Z I was scheming, saving, and planning for this twin turbo upgrade. In my opinion, only a really beautiful woman is the only thing on the planet that tops turbo power in a torqy engine like our VQ. I am going to have serious traction problems that I enjoy the hell outta dealing with, he he. Yeah it costs a lot, but in my opinion most people who are old and lying on their death beds do not lie there and regret things they did. Not as much as they regret the things they did not do. It is not my goal to get to the end of life with the most money and possessions intact. It is to skid in sideways screaming hot damn what a ride!!!!
A:
tt is next on my list of upgrades, but it will probably be awhile. my one concern is the fact that we have rear wheel drive. how effective is a tt with no traction?
i love the new audi rs4. anyone checked it out? all wheel drive with lots of horsepower is the way to go.
A:
RWD provides substantially more traction than FWD.
AWD just takes away the fun, RWD is the only way to be.
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
A:
^^2nd... FWD has torque steer... really annoying... AWD IMO should only be for offroad (dirt and such)...RWD... lots-o-fun...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
A:
I agree with phxZ31 and staticivic 03. Coming off the line, weight (and thus best traction) is transferred to the rear tires regardless of fwd/rwd/awd. On front wheel drive that weight transfer causes a lot more traction problems and on rear wheel drive it improves off the line performance.
Only coming off the line will I have any real traction problmeos with my factory tires and twin turbo power. And I can handle that with better tires. I have already purchased two wheels from the '90 - '96 300 ZX twin turbo for when I go drag racing. They fit our 350Zs real well. On them I'm going to mount Mickey Thompson ET Drag Radials. The new MT ETs are mucho improved. I have a lightweight aluminum racing jack. So I just mount the wheels with drag radials at home, go racing, and remount the street wheels/tires when I get home. I have an impact wrench so changing the wheels is a breeze. The new MT ETs are street legal and good enough in the rain to just go to and from the dragstrip if you take it easy. I should pull 1.6 to 1.7 second sixty foot times and have no traction problems at the drag strip. Do you realize that those 60 ft. times equate to pulling well over 1 g coming off the line?!? I have done that before and it feels like a bat outta hell. Serious giggles! Second best feeling I have ever had in my life, ha. Those times and acceleration out of the hole are just as good as the off the line performance that I had with my all wheel drive mitsu eclipse turbo. After you hook up off the line, our rear wheel drive has more drivetrain efficiency and a higher top end in the quarter mile than awd.
Don't let traction issues on the street keep you away from turbo power with our 350Zs, justinrhenry. On the street, I'm going to run Goodyear Eagle F1 GS D3's on my factory rims - front, 245/45/17 and rear, 255/45/17. If you have the larger factory wheels, you can run front P255/40ZR18 and rear P275/40ZR18. My factory tires are about ready for replacing anyway. There are other good tire combos as well. That's just the ones I'm going with. Course you can do better than that with even wider rims, but I can't afford everything at once, ha.
Post Edited (Dec 31, 9:48pm)
A:
More Power wrote: "but in my opinion most people who are old and lying on their death beds do not lie there and regret things they did. Not as much as they regret the things they did not do."
I agree with this comment.....I've had Mazda RX-7's a '83, '85 SE, and '87 Turbo. Then back in 1993 I got really sick and when I got through most of it I sold the Turbo as I didn't think I'd ever be able to get into a low car anymore. Fast forward to 12/2005, I'm 62, retired in April 2005 and said what good is the money I saved if I'm not going to really enjoy some joys while I am still able to. So I went out and bought my 2003 Redline Touring 6 speed and it is awesome!
2003 Redline Touring
A:
Congratulations Wbranch!!!! And More Power to you!! I'm 51 and know exactly of what you speak. Hell, you may as well just break down now and go turbo as well. More fun than a mortal was meant to endure. ha I love to qtr. mile race and it does not cost much to do. And I an NOT about to put up with any close races with stock Mustang GTs or Camaros, ha. I used to have and race a Mustang GT (suped up '68 Fastback back in the early to mid '70s) until I reformed, ha. And just like a reformed whore, I now have to look down with contempt on my prior, sordid life. Ha, Just kidding. I like Mustangs ok and have friends with new ones. Just like I used to own and race an HKS Stage VI+ Mitu Eclipse turbo AWD and am not about to put up with any close races with stock Evos! I have a friend with one who races where I do and the trash talk at the track and at work is light hearted and is all in good fun. I even have a very close friend who is an MD with a bimmer who I am helping to go turbo and beef up his tranny. And my motto with bimmers is:
Damn those German supercars !@#$!. What's that you say, Jose Jimenez? "When I geet the APS turbo and de Beemers pull up to my 350Z at stoplights and rev on me, dey will all look de same. But, by the next stoplight, dey will look deffrent." What do you mean different?!? "By de next stop light...dey will look scared!"
Guy at work has a (stock) C5 Corvette and wayyyyy too much confidence, he he. When I get the turbos installed, he is gonna get a BIG surprise. ha
I don't mind having competitive races with Vipers and ZO6s, but nobody better come in here with any of that weak stuff! ha. I have a friend with an APS twin turbo 350Z who just blew away a 996 Porsche twin turbo and just totally ABUSED a new C6 vette. The porsche and C6 drivers had that old chuckle chuckle grin at first as they thought they were going up against a lil 350Z till they received a rude awakening. And that right quick!
Good luck and contemplate boost. I just love to hear the blow off valve vent excess boost between gears with...stump pulling grunt on the bottom end and lots of mid and top range Atlas booster type acceleration.
Good luck whatever you decide!!!
Post Edited (Jan 2, 9:57pm)
A:
Its good to see More Power back with his novella-esque replies ;)
A:
More Power wrote:
>The twins are smaller at 41 lbs. of air per minute each, but together they
> can put out 82 lbs of air per minute. Vs. 60 lbs per minute for the larger
> single T.
So you're saying the twin turbos are flowing a higher mass of air than the single turbo at the same boost pressure?
A:
Yeah, the twin turbos are smaller individually (capable of 41 lbs of air per minute each, but 82 lbs of air/minute combined) than the single turbo (capable of 60 lbs of air per minute) but put out more combined air at any given boost pressure. Of course the power with either T or TT depends of how they are tuned. As you will see.
The single T puts out a max of up to 600 hp at the engine, but that would be with the plenum, exhaust, test pipes and some head work. So the single T can be tuned for about any power level you want from around 380 wheel hp (457 hp at the engine) up to right at 500 hp at the wheels (600 hp at the engine). That is about the most you can get out of them at the top of their efficiency range. Most people are going to tune them (single T) for around 400 hp at the wheels or about 482 hp at the engine on stock 350Z engine internals as APS recommends for max engine longevity. Now as more and more has been learned about safely tuning this combo (single T with the accessories mentioned), more and more people are pushing that up there toward 450 wheel hp which translates to approx. 542 hp at the engine.
The twins are smaller and spool up incredibly quick but also collectively put out more air at the same boost level compared to the single T. You can also tune them for about any hp in their efficiency range as above. (And their efficiency range is from about 400 hp to the wheels which is 482 at the engine - all the way up to 800 hp at the engine, whew!) But they just do not run out of breath (collectively) as quickly as the single T - and push on beyond the single T power levels. If you want them too. As you will see. As before, APS recommends that you build up the lower part of the engine (pistons, rods, wrist pins) if you go over 400 hp at the wheels which is about 482 hp at the engine. But as more and more experience and testing has ensued, a good many people are pushing the twins well over 500 hp at the wheels which is about 600 hp at the engine ON STOCK 350Z engine internals. And our 350Z engines are holding up fine if you get the critical fine tuning on a load based dyno. They can fine fine the engine at 168 power/load ranges over the engine rpm band from 2500 up to redline. That tuning is critical is you are going to turn up the wick past the 400 wheel hp/ 482 engine hp recommended by APS for single or Twin power level - if you your engine is stock internally. My own opinion is to get your engine fine tuned regardless of power levels or stock/non-stock internally. Better for max safety.
The real advantage (besides faster spool up and faster response) of the twins is that if you do build up the engine and include the accessories mentioned, you can take them up to about 800 hp at the engine. The single runs out of breath at about 500 wheel hp or 600 engine hp.
I am going to have my APS twins fine tuned at about 11.5 psi of boost for the 93 octane map (APS has different maps for your local gas octane) on stock engine internals. With the accessories that follow, based on the results of others, we should dyno around 450 to 500 hp at the wheels or 542 to 600 hp at the engine. The APS twins kit comes with dual cold air intakes and the larger fuel injectors and the upgraded fuel system with fuel return system, larger oil pan with cooling vents, and a larger intercooler, natch. In addition to the APS twin turbo kit, I am going to run the APS tall boy, hi flow plenum, APS test pipes, and APS 2.5 in. turbo exhaust to get the above power levels. The main reason I am going with the APS twins rather than the single T is that eventually, when I get the money, ha, I want to build up the bottom end of my engine and run about 550 hp at the wheels which is about 663 hp at the engine. I am probably going to stop there and be satisfied. Maybe just wee bit beyond that but not much. My auto tranny is built up and guaranteed to handle up to 600 lb ft of torque at the wheels. Now it is estimated that my tranny can handle up to 800 lb ft of torque to the wheels, but the quarantee is up to 600 lb ft torque to the wheels. So you can see that I am getting up close to but safely under limits that the engine and tranny can handle. Now this is my plan. Until we bolt this bad boy together and put it on the dyno and test the tranny under twin turbo power... we won't really know anything for sure till we do it. It's a fun and exciting project.
So really the first limiting factor of the power of the single or the twins is how much power you want to put on the bottom end of the engine. Have it tuned as you like (within their efficiency ranges). Then if you don't plan to build the engine for the higher power that the twins are capable of, you can save money by going with the single T and holding pat. Only if you plan to build up the bottom end of your engine and run the big power is it really worth going to the extra expense of the twins IMO. But, of course, if you want max engine response and performance and have the extra cash, the best way to go is the twins IMO.
Sorry my posts are soooo long, but these are really complicated questions/issues and I don't want to see anyone pushing their engine without knowing all those little details. And really I don't think people should go turbo unless they really do do their homework with these details. The engine you save will be your own, ha. You see, within the world of forced induction right now with the 350Z, I am actually being conservative. Some people such as Tuan at GRD, as I mentioned, has been running over 600 hp at the engine on stock engine internals for about 30,000 miles with no problems. So it really depends on what one feels most comfortable with since they are paying the freight. But if you are going to push the performance envelope like Tuan and others are doing, you damn sure better have it set up right and tuned by an expert. Tuning is critical is you turn up the wick like that. Hope this helps.
P.S. I think Sharif was running 642 wheel hp or almost 775 engine hp with his Greddy TT kit on his built up 350Z engine. Last time I checked. A video of his was posted on this website over a year ago. (When he was at about 417 wheel hp or about 500 hp at the engine.) As I said, his Greddy kit is mucho mucho modified so don't try anything remotely like that on the stock Greddy kit. The APS TT kit costs more, but the advantage is that they have all the things to run the big power safely, like upgraded fuel system with fuel return system, all tested and integrated into the stock kit. And all their dealers have to have load based dynos and successfully complete fine tuning training. Sharif is pushing the performance envelope out there but he is "on his own" and has a lot of tuning experience and he has help with the tuning as well. So his is a customized set up, but you better really know what you are doing to walk in his shoes.
Post Edited (Jan 3, 7:34pm)
A:
Even I am outta breath after that verbose post! More Power signing off for a little break for a while. All my posts for 2006 done on Jan. 3.............Nah! (he he)
A:
MorePower clearly shows his philosophy: most power with least lag... and judging by the twin turbo system he purchased for his car he will easily accomplish exactly what he's looking for.
My philosophy is similar but slightly different. I say a certain amount of turbo lag is your friend. On my turbo engine build, I'm going with a single huge T4 turbo. The reason is this: I don't need or want any boost under 3K RPMs because I don't want or need 400RWHP when I'm driving 55MPH on surface streets. But I want that power accessible to me with a simple downshift and flick of my foot on the throttle pedal.
Don't get me wrong, instantaneous and constant power is awesome if you're building a car strictly for racing, but I want a car that will be reliable as a daily driver as well. That means it must get reasonable gas mileage and be driveable in any conditions (dry, rain, etc).
Currently my car is N/A and in 1st and 2nd gear it has no problems getting into the upper RPMs very very quickly, which means it won't be very difficult to get to boost from a complete stop. When I'm on the freeway driving at 75MPH, I'm at exactly 3000 RPMs, which means I have the flexibility to do literally ALL of my daily driving and commuting BEFORE boost even kicks in. This also means that I can make a road trip in my car cruising along at 75-80MPH with barely any significant impact on gas mileage. Then all it will take to leave somebody in my dust will be a quick downshift and stomp on the throttle and I'll be gone.
Now as I mentioned, my setup is specifically tailored to my particular application; keeping my car as economical and driveable as possible, while still having the ability to outrun anybody else on the road if I so desire.
I have a feeling MorePower is looking for the absolute quickest car he can get, and I doubt fuel economy was a significant consideration motivating his build. Either way it will end up being one bad ass setup.
Morepower: you better post some pics of your setup once its installed. I'm dying to see it completed. Any idea when its going to be installed and tuned?
Also, since you've been talking so much about this APS system so much, I've been very curious.. is it a parellel turbo setup that feeds together after the turbos, or are the turbos set up sequentially?
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
A:
yup! that sounds great... the reinforced auto tranny sounds great but i would have still liked to have seen it on a manual...
i guess i'll have to wait for mine... a LONG wait...
but i honestly think that my best bet would be to go with phx's idea and keep the economical portion of the car, and keep the boost at 3000+
although i have no doubt that after feeling the power of a FI setup i would much rater waste my gas then be without it... but hey... wishful thinking right?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
A:
phxZ31 and staticivi03, you both make a lot of good points. One thing to be careful about with my setup (high torque, fast response) during icy conditions is exactly what you mention, phxZ31. One can overboost right into a ditch, ha, but waaay too true! Our cars with turbos can jump right out from under you during icy conditions if you do not take it REAL smooth and easy. No joke. And my auto tranny response is much quicker now and much more aggressive coming off the line and for upshifts and downshifts. In non slick conditions that is great and thrilling. In icy conditons you can overpower the wheels and break lose real quickly.
I also think it is a LOT of fun the way you two are going with the bit more turbo lag in the setup you want. Though you'll get less immediate response, it IS very very thrilling when a big single turbo comes on full boost. It is a real rush!! I have driven a Supra with a single big turbo and it was a blast. That thing was peaky and did not have a lot of power when down low in RPMs, but it came on like an angered God's fury when it did hit its power band! Whew! I actually vacillated back and forth between single and twin turbo a LOT myself before I made my decision. And it is true that, theoretically, you can do better with your gas mileage with a bit of turbo lag - if you can withstand the tempation to put your foot into it all the time. When the old red mist rises on we, of the white knuckle set, ha. It is very addicting! I know. Mine will cruise along fine with good gas mileage, but if you even think, ha, about putting your foot down, the turbos will be spooling up and there went your gas mileage. My fuel injectors will be bigger as well. It is always ready to go, the faster the better. It bequiles you... he he. Like a beautfiul woman except women are even more dangerous, ha! Whether the weather is icy or not! ha But no guts, no glory and though it's a tough job, somebody's gotta do it.
My set up is pretty good for curves in that power is maybe easier to predict due to faster response. Have to be careful with that big turbo, you can overpower the wheels suddenly if it comes on too abruptly in the middle of a curve just like my set up can overpower easily in slick road conditions. But you'll get used to that with practice and be able to predict when and how to apply power. There are pluses and minuses with both approaches, but fun with either. And since you'll probably have a crossover pipe with a single turbo in our V-6 engine configuration, you'll get a bit of turbo lag right there. But since you said you plan to keep the high compression, you'll still have decent response when you need it. As you say, either of our setups will be able to outrun almost anybody else on the road. I used to be in the Air Force, and any good turbo setup on a 350Z is as close as most of us mortals will ever get to experiencing an F15 Eagle fighter plane on full afterburner. God help me, but I do love it so!
Post Edited (Jan 3, 7:42pm)
A:
I will also be trying to run some boost coming off the line for drag racing. Specifically I may have 3 to 4 psi of boost sitting there at the line even before launching the way my auto tranny and stall speed are set up. It should come off the line like a bat outta hell, but you do have to have traction for all that torque and be adept at launching a torque monster like that. I kinda like the controlled wheel spin at launch with a bit of gratuitous fish tailing, ha, that a limited slip differential enhances.
Good luck. I want to get my turbos on as soon as the snowy weather gets down to a milder roar in the Chicago area where I have to go. Is that late March or more like April? I'm getting antsy as hell.
A:
You just better post the pics once its done! I must see it.
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
A:
My turbo twins are parallel, phxZ31. And they stay separate with twin test pipes and into an APS true dual exhaust. Here are some pics from the website:
I haven't seen a sequential setup on a V-6 like our VQs. Yet... I used to work part time on weekends and on some of my days off at a major turbo performance center. I got to drive modified mid '90s sequential turbo RX-7s and they and the sequential (inline 6) Supras were impressive. I contemplated going sequential on the HKS eclipse turbo I had back then. If I had kept the car longer, that was the next move I was planning to make. That shop did a lot of fabricating and custom turbo projects. And I think it would have worked real good considering that car's relatively small engine displacement and power characteristics. I can just imagine what a seqential setup would be like on our VQs with a small primary and a really large secondary turbo. Quite a really really cool shock, I bet. Damn, you are going to mess with my mind and make me start lusting again, you dog! I guess you'd have a crossover pipe and route both exhausts into one for a sequential turbo on our VQ? Maybe a bit more complicated...my real concern would be if there is room for a seqential setup on our VQ. Turbonetics puts the single turbo where our aircleaners are on stock 350Zs. APS puts the single turbo directly underneath the car, but not low enough to drag. My twin turbos are tucked in tight up next to the exhaust manifold on each side of the engine - very close to the exhaust ports for fast spool up and response. Where would you put the sequential turbos? Space is a bwitch to come by with our cars.
Post Edited (Jan 3, 6:32pm)
A:
I realize space is scarce on 350Zs. I'm gonna go look at my buddies 250Z and I'll tell you exactly how I'd install a sequential system later tonight, after I've looked at it for a bit.
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
A:
what does N/A stand for? i always thought it meant not applicable or not available, but somehow i doubt that's what you mean here.
A:
n/a means naturally aspirated (standard atmospheric pressure 14.7 lbs/square in.). As opposed to forced induction such as turbo and superchargers. Many include nitrous oxide as forced induction which technically to me, it is. But it sounds like he is planning to change all that (his n/a status) with a single large turbocharger. He has also expressed interest in a custom twin sequential turbochargers setup. There was a time when I was going with a Vortech centrifugal supercharger and at least contemplated an HKS rotrex centifugal supercharger, but turbos lured me back, as usual. Sigh... I used to be sponsored by HKS, but that was back in my mitsu eclipse turbo days. (HKS is also coming out with single and twin turbos shortly by the way for our 350Zs). 2 years ago there was hardly anything forced induction for our 350Zs, but now we have just about anything you want to name for 350Zs in forced induction with Stillen also offering a roots positive displacement supercharger. As well as things like cams, headers, high flow upper intake plenums, and underdrive pulley kits. It has taken the markets some time for R&D, but it seems like we are finally getting more up to par, performance parts-wise, with the other makes and our own Z ancestors. But the 350Z is still only 3 and a half years old, roughly, so we are making real progress. Now the future looks so bright, it hurts my eyes, ha.
Oh by the way, Wbranch, pursuant to your original post in this thread, there are also hi-flow catalytic converters, such as Random Technolgy, for our 350Zs. Cuts down on the cat exhaust restriction a great deal and they are street legal. I don't know if they are legal in CA or not. And of course the famed test pipes for even less restriction, but they are not emissions legal. But they can be removed and the cats put back on quite easily. (he he)
Post Edited (Jan 3, 7:19pm)
A:
i still think i'm gonna go for TT setup however... because from what you guys say it's a little smoother... plus i want TD exhaust as well... i'm really looking to get the APS "monster" exhaust... or whatever they decided to call it... i think that it will be more efficient when it comes to running turbos and suck... plus it is suppose to have a more aggressive sound... check out the APS site... either way... i very much like phx's setup... i think i already know the shop that i want to get to do the install... it is WAYYY down cooper, just into Mansfield, headed north... if any of you guys know the shop called "SpeedSouth" i'd definately like to hear some reviews on them... i visited them a few months ago and was pretty impressed with their shop... as opposed to a hole in the wall shop like Alamo Autosports, but i hear good things from them too... so i dunno...
speedsouth's website is: www.speedsouth.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chrome Silver '03 Touring -MT-
C.F. Nismo Wing
Shorty Antenna (Stolen!!! Thanks alot!)
Kicker Solo Baric L7 1200w
I don't think, I know...
Well, I don't think you know either
A:
I found a sweet couple of pics of that twin turbo APS system MorePower got. Check out this hottness!!:
All I can say is DAMN! Who needs a sequential turbo setup when you have that monster available!!
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
Post Edited (Jan 3, 10:32pm)
A:
Hey, thanks for posting the pics, phxZ31. I looked into posting pic on this website, but I think it said something about you have to have a host website or something or another. Anyway I haven't gotten around to doing whatever it takes to post pics here.
The single turbo pics are also on the APS website. I FINALLY, after much soul searching, ha, decided on the twin turbos even though they cost more and the install is more. Notice from the pics that the twin turbos are nestled right up next to the exhaust manifolds. That is for absolute and totally quick turbo spool up and response. I mean, if you punch it, boost is strong at 2500 RPMs. Immediately if not sooner. ha Turbos have just come a long way since my eclipse and the 300 ZX tt which both came out back in 1990. These are the new technology twin ball bearing, oil lubricated, and water cooled GT series turbos from Garrett. These are designed to last for 200,000 miles. And they are billed as the fastest spooling turbos on the planet. These turbos spool up faster, but the efficiency range is so much better than back in the early to mid 90s or even 5 years ago. These are actually pretty big blowers - they have reduced the size outside but the air flow output is incredible. These little babies are happy and waaay under stressed to just humm along at a sedate 350Z power output of the 427 hp to the wheels which is approx. 515 hp at the engine. Compare that to my stock engine output of 287 hp. And remember, I am also running the APS hi flow plenum and test pipes that were not on the car with the 427.1 wheel hp dyno chart on the website (that 350Z did have the true dual exhausts as does mine). My setup at approx. 11.5 psi should put down approx. 450 to 500 wheel hp which translates to about 540 to 600 engine hp. But they are not really even trying hard at those levels. These twin turbos with cams and some head work, in addition to my setup now, will give you 800 hp at the engine at about 16 psi boost if you turn them loose! I think at around 700 hp or so APS recommends upgrading the fuel sytem - I am too busy to look that up now and not worried about it cause I am not going there any time soon if ever. Of course you can tune it for any power level you want within that range and even higher depending on your personal desires, whether your engine is stock or built, the octane of your gas. Or other factors within safe parameters that a tuning extraordinaire like Tuan can explain to you.
A:
I intend to run the 540 to 600 engine hp now with stock engine internals. I will probably do that for several years before I can afford to build up the bottom end of the engine.
When I can afford it, I am going with arias extreme duty pistons, wrist pins, and Carrillo H Beam rods. These Carrillo rods can handle all the world's torque! ha. Vinny Ten, arguably the best import engine builder in the U.S., is running 1500 hp at the wheels on his twin turbo 350Z with these rods without any problems. I have discussed a lot of these details with him, personally. Along with several other expert engine buiders. I will then just add a toggle switch on my dash that flips to engage an additional tuning map. GRD and others can do this for you. The default toggle map will be my pre engine build-up 450 to 500 wheel hp (540 to 600 hp at the engine). I will run that on the street most of the time. When I go racing, I can then flip the toggle switch to the other map tuned for about 550 wheel hp which translates to about 662 hp at the engine.
Now I am actually being fairly conservative for max engine longevity. Like I said, Tuan at GRD is running well over 500 wheel hp on stock 350Z engine internals for around 30,000 miles with no problems. A good many others are running a good bit more power on stock engine internals than I will be. Some people on this board think I am crazy to run these power levels, but in reality, others are the ones pushing the 350Z performance envelope. Not me. I am merely tagging along according to what the real performance leaders have done and proven to be safe, but I am taking it easier at even a bit safer level. I wait and see what others are doing successfully with engine longevity and shamelessly use their strategies at a more subdued level. A word of caution though, I would not push our 350Zs beyond the initial standard power rate of around 400 hp to the wheels unless you are going to also get it fine tuned by one of the experts. My own advice is to get it fine tuned even at the standard kit level. I plan to have my 350Z fine tuned once a year to make sure things like the air/fuel ratio, timing, and boost are perfect all the way across the rpm band. APS has already got a lot of safety built into the kit with the larger cooling oil pan, huge, super effiecient intercooler, much upgraded fuel system and injectors including a fuel return system for consistent fuel availability. But my opinion is that real precise tuning by an expert is also a key to long term engine safety. Again, APS recommends also building the bottom of the engine if going over 400 hp to the wheels.
But even my initial, default 540 to 600 hp at the engine on stock engine internals is BAD fast if you've never driven a car with that much power. I have done this before and it still feels crazy fast to me. As far as I'm concerned, that's what makes the world go around, ha. I should be able to run mid 11 sec. qtr. miles at 125 to 130 mph. I recently saw a magazine road test on the current Viper vs. Z06 shoot out. The Viper ran 12.2 sec and the Z06 ran 11.8. Somebody is always faster no matter how fast you are. But that is pretty cool territory.
Post Edited (Jan 4, 2:07pm)
A:
Hey staticivi03, the monster exhaust you are talking about is the massive APS 3" exhaust with huge 3.5 inch test pipes. Yes, that is brand new. I have been drooling over that for a while as well. ha.
APS says the 2.5 inch true dual exhaust and 2.5 inch test pipes, like I have, are all you need for the turbo power levels I am talking about. But as far as I can tell, (so far) there is not a downside to going with the 3 in. monster exhaust and 3.5 in. test pipes initially. When yer hot, yer HOT! At some point, and that point is probably beyond 600 engine hp, the monster exhaust would take you beyond my 2.5 inch exhaust power levels. Don't quote me on this as I am not totally sure where the benefit of the monster exhaust over the formidable in its own right, 2.5 in. APS exhaust occurs.
I wondered if one might even lose some torque at low rpms with the monster exhaust at my boost level (about 11.5 psi) vs. the APS 2.5 in., but I do not know that to be true. My 2.5 incher APS exhaust has incredible flow though. People with injen, stillen, borla, and other aftermarket exhausts running APS turbos have switched over to the APS 2.5 inch exhaust and reported large power gains from that alone. Due to much lower exhaust retrictions with turbos on the boil. Of course the APS 2.5 inch exhaust was designed and tested for turbo power from the git go to be fair. There is probably very little power difference on a stock, non turbo 350Z with an APS exhuast vs. injen, stillen, borla and the other exhausts.
If you do go with an APS turbo, though, I have heard of people reporting that when they switched from other aftermarket exhuasts to APS, that the boost on the single turbo automatically went from about 7 psi to 9.5 psi or something like that. And power went up dramatically as you would expect. But those other aftermarket exhausts were not designed for turbos on our 350Zs and so I am not criticizing them. Like I said, on stock 350Zs, APS vs. the best aftermarket exhausts is probably very little different. When you start pressurizing the air flow, little restrictions and air flow can make a huge difference in power that would be manifested on a pure stock Z.
And the test pipes make a big difference with turbos as well. Anywhere you have a bottle neck restriction, such as the cats, from the intake all the way through the exhaust, affects power big time with the turbos.
Conversely, if you have the 2.5 inch APS exhuast and test pipes with the APS twin turbos, it has been found that adding headers to the setup did not really help much at all. Now without the turbos, the best headers should help a lot. The devil is in the details and there is no substitute for thorough testing specific setups.
A:
Yeah you'll have one bad ass setup there. You're lucky too, because you have the older VQ35 engine which I personally believe to be superior to the 300HP version because of the higher torque.
On my engine build, I'm putting torque numbers first and foremost, and horsepower second. With the engine I'm building (VG33ET) I'm hoping to hit 450ft/lbs of torque and around 400HP at the wheels. Luckily the older SOHC engines in stock form produce more torque than horsepower. In fact N/A z31s can easily keep up with N/A z32s, despite the z32 having a 62HP advantage. This is because the z32 only has a 18-20ft/lb of torque advantage over the z31 and its also got about 200lbs more in weight. So those two extra cams may make wonders of difference in horsepower, but in real world performance the difference is negligeable because they don't help the torque numbers much.
Many people are easily hitting the 400RWHP mark in z31s with the stock turbo engine, with its lesser compression ratio of 7.8:1 (really low!). The stock N/A engine is identical internally except for pistons, and the difference makes a compression ratio of 9.0:1. Now I'm going with a stock vg33 block, and its compression ratio is just slightly less at 8.9:1, but I intend to make up the difference with proper head gaskets to get to 9.0:1 at a minimum. So with a higher compression and the extra 10% of displacement, my torque goal shouldn't be very difficult to achieve with a proper setup. Also, with proper work to the heads (valve springs, cams, porting) and a gutted upper intake plenum (z31 plenum is horribly restrictive) I am hoping to get my redline up to 7-7.2K RPMs. With the T4 single turbo I envision providing the boost, I hope to run between 12-15psi from about 3,500 RPMs to the redline. The extra compression and displacement should also help that large turbo spool up as fast as possible.
Now I'm not sure about the 350Z, but the z31's stock ECU is nowhere near adequate for feeding large 555cc fuel injectors under high boost. So I will definitely have to go with a stand-alone engine management/fuel system as well as a stand-alone ignition system.
Obviously since my car is quite old and there are no bolt on kits for the setup I envision, there will be a lot of custom fabrication necessary to get the turbo and intercooler in properly. This is okay though, because this will actually allow me to custom design everything to my own specs and optimize everything according to my needs. So far the project is moving along very slowly, but I hope to have the engine fully built with all the necessary manifolds created and the turbo installed within a year, and have the entire project completed and the car re-painted within 18 months.
MorePower:
If you look at those pics I posted, you can see that the one which shows the whole exhaust system is the system with the large test pipes. Now on a N/A engine, there really is a point at which the exhaust system is too large and you will lose considerable amounts of torque on the low end if you pass this. This is generally because on a N/A engine, you must find an appropriate balance between back-pressure and exhaust gas velocity. You want the least amount of back-pressure possible with good gas velocity. You can keep getting bigger and bigger pipes, which will keep the back pressure down but will cause the exhaust gas to get slower and slower. So on N/A engines it truly is a balancing act. On a turbo engine however, the turbo's turbines will be the most restrictive element on the exhaust system which produces the back pressure between the manifold and the valves, and since there is much more gas flowing through you can really get very large pipes without slowing down the gas velocity. 2.5" should be more than adequate, but I don't think that the 3" system will cause any loss of torque. It may even help the turbos spool that much faster because there will be less restriction behind the turbines.
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
Post Edited (Jan 4, 1:52pm)
A:
The picture is the 2.5 inch exhaust and the 2.5 inch test pipes. That's what you meant right? The 3.5 inch test pipes go with the 3 inch exhaust.
Yes, what you are telling me is about like I have heard. There seems to be no torque loss with the larger 3 inch exhaust and 3.5 inch test pipes compared to my 2.5 inchers with the twin turbos onboard as a given.
Whew, at 450 lb. ft. torque to the wheels, you should be about as fast as me after my TT install. Maybe quicker? Hard to say till we get some real testing and numbers. Like me you will have to have some drag radials, slicks, or some set up with enough tire to get traction when you launch that torque monster. Like you said, there won't be many on the street that can keep up. Or many sports cars at the drag strip, that can also take curves, that can keep up for that matter.
Post Edited (Jan 4, 3:44pm)
A:
Yes, I also love torque. That is the only thing I did NOT like about my HKS mitsu eclipse turbo all wheel drive. On boost, it was a monster. With a 5000 rpm launch, it was a monster off the line. Taking off at a red light at idle, he he, it was pretty weak - sick really. (NOT the cool kind of sick, ha) I had a pontiac firebird formula smoke my ass off the line at a red light back in 1991. Because I didn't know we were racing and I just took off from an idle. Now it would have been different if I had reved to my 5000 rpm launch and then dropped the clutch with my boost taking off and my all wheel drive in the equation. As it was, I took took off pretty briskly (for that car), but from an idle that trans am just smoked my ass. But good! Oh, but then he had to be a wise-a$$ and pull over in front of me as soon as he cleared my front bumper by about one inch. And he stated flashing his lights and laughing and such like he had a real neat kill. Little did he know I'd just pull back over into the left lane where he had been, spool up my highly modified racing turbo to 22 psi, and leave him soooo far behind... he would not even get close to me for a rematch after that. But the point is, I really really like the nice torque our Z cars put out much better than my mitsu 4 banger, like you said. Power anywhere and anytime in the rpm band. I especially like that nice torque when you apply power at the apex of curves. I have a real good friend at work with an RX-8. Nice handling car, but badly in the need of more torque. Mazda built some 3 rotor rotaries with good torque for racing. I don't know why they did not put them in their street cars.
You would just love to talk to my nephew. He restores Z cars and then sells some of them. He has about 8 or 9 Zs right now going back to the 240Z to a 300 ZX single turbo, I think he has one TT Z32, and he has several 280Zs... maybe a 280ZX (non turbo). I think he has at least one mid 80s 300 ZX non turbo like yours. I'll pass your info along to him. He will really like it. My brother, his father was a Datsun then Nissan Master Mechanic. I loved the 240Z first time I saw one way back in 1970. My brother built some 240Zs for racing for customers that would make ANY Z car fan just DROOL! EVERYTHING in the Datsun performance parts book and then a whole lot more besides. That was and stillis a neato little car.
What you are doing is really a LOT more advanced than my project. Fabricating a custom set up like yours is on a much higher level than my pre-engineered and pretested 350Z APS twin turbo kit. Light years more advanced and difficult. But I have seen the results of good custom turbo jobs as you mentioned. My 350Z auto tranny with just the tranny upgraded was running 13.9s - I only got to take it to the drag strip that one time in mid nov. after my tranny work was done and before the drag strip closed for the season. A little mitsu lancer (NOT an evo) with...I think it was the little 1.8 litre four banger engine....had a custom, fabricated turbo and intercooler set up. Guy was a machinest and he did a good job considering what he was working with. Anyway, this little front wheel drive 1.8 Litre lancer was also running 13.9s with slicks. It is a cute little car and all, but that really made me antsy to get my TTs installed. Real nice guy, but it's time for me to up the ante and turn up the wick. He will be faster next spring also, but I should be a LOT faster. Yeah, I know, a fast neon type car is still just a neon or lancer, but I am ready to get separation from those types of cars. He told me a couple of things he's going to do to make it faster this winter, but it won't be much faster. Not really worth it to take a car like that much further. I have a lot of respect for the work he did though, none the less.
Good luck. If you are anywhere near MD, lets go racing sometimes. Where are you located? I also want to go to the road course at Summitt Point, WV, after my turbo install. I definitely do NOT intend to turn my sports car into a dragster that cannot take curves!
A:
Yeah I'm going to need to make real good friends with a talented welder soon to make a lot of this stuff happen for my car.. but I'm sure it will all begin to come together. I found a guy who makes custom turbo manifolds for Z31s, but even his custom manifold I'll need to have some significant changes made to in order to get to where I need to be.
Actually I live in Phoenix, but I will definitely be doing some major roadtrips in the coming years. I have a few friends who live in NY who've been trying to get me out there for years. And I've always wanted to do a long road trip in my Z. Should I ever get out there with my car though I'd love to do some track racing! I'm always down for racing or even just cruising.
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
A:
Phoenix! Heck I am a U.S. Public Heath Sevice Commissioned Officer and I was stationed as a dept. head at the PHS Hospital on the White Mountain Apache Tribe Indian reservation, Whiteriver, AZ. Fort Apache. I had 10 Apache Indians, one Pima Indian, and one white RN who worked for me. Way up in the White Mountains of AZ. For 2 years back in the mid 80s. My youngest son was born at the PHS hospital at Fort Apache. I had to go down to Phoenix at least once a quarter for meetings. Sometimes I was in Phoenix for over a week at a time for seminars.
The hospital was at 5200 ft. altitude and I lived in a little town outside the reservation called Pinetop, AZ, at 7200 ft. altitude. Whew, I sure could have used a turbo there. Cars lose power and run outta breath at that altitude. Funny thing was, we had hospital owned turbo cars, the old Dodge... I guess it was Aries turbos. Not very fast by today's standards but pretty fast at high altitudes at the time. Anyway when I went to Phoenix for meetings, I took a hospital turbo car and they did pretty well for the times.
I loved the summers in cool, green, high altitude Pinetop. And I loved the winters in warm Phoenix when I was there. That is when I first started reading Turbo magazine about the Z31s and mounting intercoolers and so forth to get More Power out of them. Guess what?!? A teacher on the Apache Indian reservation sold me an old Datsun 2000 cc sports car for $200. ha. Which I bought for my brother. He still had a lot of parts for that car and the old 1600 cc sports car as well. My nephew has one or two of those Datsun sports cars now as my brother and nephew restore mostly Z cars, but them as well. They are pretty scarce. If you EVER get a chance, get up there around Whiteriver, Pinetop, Lake Side, and Show Low sometime. It is beautiful... God's country. Hunting and fishing resorts on and off the reservation. Indians run a real nice ski resort called Sunrise up at about 9000 ft. altitude. Salt River Canyon and Witeriver that runs through the Indian reservation down toward Phoenix is beautiful. Everybody out there had all these tall tales about the Superstition Mountains... where the Lost Dutchman mine is supposedly hidden. Lots of people still go in there looking for the gold mine...and never come out again. I used to accuse the Apaches of doing them in...he he. They'd just smile that sly smile... You never know... Everybody in my family visited us while we were out there and loved it. That desert part as you come into Phoenix from Globe and Miami had cactus 50 ft. tall seemed like as I'm sure you know. People where I work now ask me who I pi$$ed off out there bad enough to get stationed from there to Maryland. ha.
Post Edited (Jan 4, 7:45pm)
A:
You mentioned the engine management system for turbo power for my 350Z. Yes the APS twin turbo kit has a unichip that piggybacks on the stock ECU. Through fine tuning on a load based dyno, they can super fine tune the unichip and thus the engine management system for boost, timing, air/fuel at 168 points in the engine load/rpm band. As more and more has been learned about forced induction for 350Zs, it has become quite clear that this super fine tuning according to the octane fuel map in your area is critical to why these high powerered APS turbo 350Zs hold up real well long term. That and the robust fuel system and intercooler and other safety features. Several were run at about 520 engine hp for 36,000 miles for longevity testing. Then they tore the engines down and could find no signs of engine wear. Yes, it costs a bit more, but rebuilding engines is even more expensive.
A:
I've been to Pinetop many times. My parents used to have a cabin in Pinetop and my grandfather has a house in Pinetop Lakeside. I probably go up there at least a few times a year to visit my grandparends or to go snowboarding at Sunrise. In fact a few years ago during winter break my first year of college I was on ski patrol up there and also taught a few snowboarding lessons. My 300ZX loves it up there actually. It loves the cool weather and the clean air.
----------
1985 300ZX n/a
A:
Just think how good your Z car will run up there (Pinetop) with the turbo set up!!!! Those 2 major down/up grades between Whiteriver and Pinetop, on the main highway, have some of the best S curves ever! Try your Z car with them when you get the turbo installed and tell me how it feels. I had a "suped up" B210 Datsun, ha, back then and it wasn't that great going up the grades, but it was one hell of a ride going the other way down them! I had a real cute half white/half Osage Indian nurse damn near crying and begging for mercy on that wild downhill ride one time. She still calls me sometimes and tells me it was the thrill of her young life going downhill with the Savannah Flash...sigh. I still remind her (engage phony John Wayne accent), "Well.... I'm the only law around HERE, baby sister, and you better get USED to it!" Good luck with the Z car turbo project!
A:
Yes and hell no. Yes on a mustang, like mine I have a programmer in my ECU that I hook a laptop to and can change any parameter of the stock program, including shift points for auto's, injector pulse width, spark timing, etc. You can also trick the O2 sensors but the cats are not wired to the ECU.
You can infact lean it out enough to pass a sniffer without cats if your engine is in very good shape, however unless your inspector is blind it's going to be pretty obvious the cats are missing = failed test.
Has nothing to do with the computer really. The best thing is to just install gutted cats, so you can pass a visual on the side of the road should an officer decided he wants to look under your loud car, which is happening more and more. Happened to my wife with our stang, fine was $1000 per cat so $2000 for us but I got it dropped, thank god.
Matt