A&Q about 350Z
Q:
lpg cas and autogas automobiles
A:
i dont think the idea of lpg cars is very feasable. it's a fuel with less energy than gasoline so one tank of that will not last as long because you'll get worse gas mileage. another thing, i think it's actually just as costly or almost as costly as gasoline per mile. that's without the cost of installation.
the only advantage to this that i see is that it produces fewer green house gases.
i think that right now the best fuel is diesel. it contains more energy than gasoline, the engine design itself is more efficient, it's widely available, it's not much more expensive than gas per gallon, and you get more mpg so in the long run it's cheaper per mile than gasoline. plus there are new filtering systems that are making the emissions less smelly, modern diesel cars are not very stinky but audi is developing a filter that makes it better.
A:
better tell the europeans that it don't work very well....LPG is doing quite well over there.
LPG may have less BTU's per gallon, but that doesn't mean its not comparable. A couple things to think about. LPG has higher octane equiv to pump gas, so its easier to get more power from it (engines can be tuned to a higher level). Its much cleaner, emissions wise, but it also doesn't create acids and particles like gasoline does, which improves engine life and reduces oil breakdown.
Depending on the quality/mix of LPG, it will only reduce MPG by 10 to 20%. I believe that as of right now, LPG is something like 20-40% cheaper than pump gas. I'd call that a pretty livable number.
But the future fuels are ethonal, methonal and biodeisel....but until that becomes a more realistic reality, LPG is a good alternative assuming it stays priced simular to now.
A:
I have to disagree with you there, i'd say most of their cars are diesel. why? because it is more fuel efficient, it is cheaper per mile, and it is more widely available.
actually no. it has a higher octane yes, but that doesn't mean you can get more power from it. it just means that you can run higher compression or more boost. but even when you run higher compression, you won't get more power than a gasoline car with the same engine on less compression. it's just a matter of less energy. the fuel doesn't have as much energy in it which means you cant tranfer as much chemical energy into kinetic energy. this means less power and less fuel economy.
I'll agree with you on the fact that it burns cleaner. but i don't know of any acidic particles that result from burning gasoline. there are NOx emissions that create smog and there is some CO (carbon monoxide) but nothing acidic. also that has very little to do with engine life.
what do you mean by the quality or mix of LPG? it's simply propane, C3H8, there's nothing that could make it better or worse quality, it's all the same chemical.
Another thing I'd have to disagree with. ethanol, although it burns cleaner, is difficult to start on cold days. that's where E85 comes into play. E85 has 15% gasoline to start it. ethanol would be a good fuel if it didn't require a complete redesign of the fuel transport and delivery systems in both cars and the rest of the process. it's corrosive, which means that you cant have plastics exposed to it or they dissolve. it also has a higher octane rating, but if the car is going to remain capable of driving on only gasoline, it cant have that high octane.
methanol on the other hand has only 51% on the energy content of gasoline. which means that methanol can only drive you half the distance of gasoline. also, it is highly corrosive, again complete redesign of the fuel system. it has all of the dissadvantages of ethanol without nearly as much of an advantage.
Biodiesel is a great alternative fuel. it burns without the sulfur oxides of normal diesel and sometimes gets you better gas mileage. it's also better for the environment because you can harvest your fuel and it's renewable. the dissadvantages: well, where are you going to get all that biodiesel? countries use alot of fuels, how are you going to supply the world with millions of barrels of penut oil or vegetable oil or whatever every day. it's also more expensive than petrodiesel, nearly a dollar per gallon more. another thing is that in higher concentrations you need to heat it in order to kee it from turning into a waxy solid and to allow it to actually make it through the injectors.
A:
I have to disagree with you there, i'd say most of their cars are diesel. why? because it is more fuel efficient, it is cheaper per mile, and it is more widely available.
actually no. it has a higher octane yes, but that doesn't mean you can get more power from it. it just means that you can run higher compression or more boost. but even when you run higher compression, you won't get more power than a gasoline car with the same engine on less compression. it's just a matter of less energy. the fuel doesn't have as much energy in it which means you cant tranfer as much chemical energy into kinetic energy. this means less power and less fuel economy.
I'll agree with you on the fact that it burns cleaner. but i don't know of any acidic particles that result from burning gasoline. there are NOx emissions that create smog and there is some CO (carbon monoxide) but nothing acidic. also that has very little to do with engine life.
what do you mean by the quality or mix of LPG? it's simply propane, C3H8, there's nothing that could make it better or worse quality, it's all the same chemical.
Another thing I'd have to disagree with. ethanol, although it burns cleaner, is difficult to start on cold days. that's where E85 comes into play. E85 has 15% gasoline to start it. ethanol would be a good fuel if it didn't require a complete redesign of the fuel transport and delivery systems in both cars and the rest of the process. it's corrosive, which means that you cant have plastics exposed to it or they dissolve. it also has a higher octane rating, but if the car is going to remain capable of driving on only gasoline, it cant have that high octane.
methanol on the other hand has only 51% on the energy content of gasoline. which means that methanol can only drive you half the distance of gasoline. also, it is highly corrosive, again complete redesign of the fuel system. it has all of the dissadvantages of ethanol without nearly as much of an advantage.
Biodiesel is a great alternative fuel. it burns without the sulfur oxides of normal diesel and sometimes gets you better gas mileage. it's also better for the environment because you can harvest your fuel and it's renewable. the dissadvantages: well, where are you going to get all that biodiesel? countries use alot of fuels, how are you going to supply the world with millions of barrels of penut oil or vegetable oil or whatever every day. it's also more expensive than petrodiesel, nearly a dollar per gallon more. another thing is that in higher concentrations you need to heat it in order to kee it from turning into a waxy solid and to allow it to actually make it through the injectors.
A:
I don't remember saying that everything is LPG in europe, only that its doing well there. Diesel does well too. There is plenty of gasoline vehicles there also. Not sure what your point is....fuel efficiency means nothing. Its COST efficiency that we're talking about, yes?
You're confusing BTU's with power. Just because LPG has less BTU's per gallon, doesn't mean that it therefore must produce less power for a given engine size. The trick is to consume more of the chemical, thereby making more BTU's, thereby making more power, with a higher consumption rate of course.
Alcohol funny cars are a good example....they seem to do fine in the power production rate....they also consume a crap load of alcohol.
If you say so....
LPG is not usually pure propane. It varies from locations, distributors, ect.
As for the rest of your post, my suggestions of future fuels has nothing to do with their BTU's, its all about cost and abundance. I guess we'll have to take bets on this and see who is right.....
A:
LPG goes through phases of popularity here in NZ, at the moment its almost half the cost of petrol, and since we produce it all localy its price is not depdant on international oil prices.
The downside is the high installation costs, and because of the limited tank size lower vechile range.
However, Ford Australia make LPG dedicated Falcons, and there are plenty of conversion kits of popular commecial vechiles here, like Toyota Vans etc, So LPG is popular amongst Taxi fleets and is about 10% of the Police fleet is LPG.
A:
If you didn't notice i said cheaper per mile. diesel will give much higher fuel efficiency and is cheaper per mile than propane.
IF you took grade 11 physics you would know that power is equal to energy divided by time. if you have a fuel with less energy it won't be able to release as much energy as quickly as a fuel with more energy contained. therefore you make less power. If you consume more chemical you're just reducing gas mileage more to increase power. wait can't you do the same thing with a gasoline car? that's what a turbocharger and supercharger are for, you add more air so you can consume more fuel.
well there are also gasoline cars that produce alot of power, nitromethane cars that produce alot of power, diesel cars that produce alot of power. they all consume more fuel to make this power, i don't see your point.
The problem with alcohols, from a cost and abundance point of view, is where the hell are you going to get it? crops? well do you have any idea how much corn you'd have to grow to be able to fuel jst the united states? you'd probably have to take up all of texas (no great loss
jk) and maybe more to provide enough fuel for all the cars, tankers, transport trucks, etc. I just don't see it happening, i think it will be hydrogen or electricity. the only reason i think hydrogen is because it doesn't polute (at least not from the cars themselves) and people are really worried about that.
i personally think electricity is a more viable alternative to gasoline, you can get tonnes of torque (actually in electric drag races they dont worry about traction, they worry about cracking a driveshaft with all their torque). and with some technology that is expected to be available in 10 years that might make batteries obsolete (they're capasitors that use carbon microtubules between the sheets of metal so they can be compact and carry alot of charge and be recharged in mere minutes while discharging slowly enough to drive fr a long distance) the electric car could be much, much better than it currently is.
A:
I had typed up a long response to all of your points, but then the wonderful server that hosts this wonderful forum ate it.
But it wasn't really worth posting anyway. I'm not sure why I bother defending my opinions/understanding of these things. Since Burrito has been to 11th grade, I'll just bow out and assume he's right on these things.
A:
ROFLOL!
Don't let him get to you, I think he's just looking for a fight, hence he's irrelevant arguments, and somewhat misguided opinions.
A:
hehe, a nice neutral opinion about the situation.
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I'm not looking for a fight i'm just refuting his points with what i believe to be correct arguments.
what do you mean by misguided oppinions?
A:
You seem to think that LPG is inferior to Petrol and that Desiel is going to save the world from having to ride horses again.
Evidence is to the contray is not hard to find, the popularity of LPG here and in Australia is proof of that. LPG cars cost more to buy but they cost considerably less to run. Whiel running it in a dual fuel vechile does mean a small loss in power (about 10%) a dedicated LPG vechile will make as much, and sometimes more power than its petrol equivilant, and produce considerably less emissions.
The only limiting factor is the size of the tank required often takes up valuable load space making it impracticle to fit to smaller vechiles, and does reduce the range compared to a petrol powered equivilant.
Quite why you mentioned Bio fuels etc I have no idea, they have very little relevance to the discussion.
A:
Alright, ladies; you're both pretty
I wanna see some hard-core tech on LPG so I can make this a sticky...
A:
I want one so I can install a bbq grill in my trunk.... But anyhoo....