A&Q about 350Z
Q:
sux...but if you can't find an owners manual you may want to get a Chiltions or Haynes manuals b/c it covers basic maintance in the front of the book and they run like $17
A:
That's exactly why i quit this crooked ass business and i'm going back to school. I only made 12k a year because 1. the dealer extorted me in pay (i'm sorry you cant live off of 10 bucks an hour and 35 hours a week in this great state of Taxachusetts) and i never upsold anything that didnt need upselling. Im just too honest to be a mechanic. And now i know that when i do get a new car, i'm only bringing it to the dealer while its under warranty.
A:
it's a very crooked industry. i'm trinaing as an auto tech (that's upselling the name mechanic) but i want to work in a Mercedes-Benz dealership, and i don't plan on upselling anything, i'll only do the work i'm told to do by my superiors. if they upsell something, i'll do what i'm told.
the best way to deal with all this is to prevent it for next time, change the belts every 20-30k miles (they're cheap things anyway) and get the car up on stands occasionally, check things yourself. it'll be like 1-2 days work, but if they tell you the oil pan/sump is leaking, and you've had a look and seen that it's fine, you can tell them they're wrong.
it'll save you time and money.
A:
Meh. 20-30k is a little overboard IMO. For modern cars, 90k you should be fine. Also, TB jobs are usually not recommended for the do-it-yourselfer. It's possible, but especially on a V6, its a lot of work to get to the belt itself.
A:
preventative maintenance. i have a friend who changes the belts on his BMW every 10,000 miles, as well as changing every filter and tearing the engine down to check its condition.
but that's an engine which is faily well tuned, maybe excessive to some, but i see it as good maintenance.
A:
That friend seems to be allergic to money as well.
for *normal* people who dont have $1000 to spend every 10k to have every filter, gasket and belt changed, then 60-90k is a good mark to go by. Or check your owners manual. That's usually the best bet.
Anyway, car manufactures are going back to timing chains, and those you dont have to worry about at all really. They won't break, they just stretch and get sloppy, and you'll know when its time to change it (usually 150k+ miles anyway).
A:
when you build race cars for a living and make $131 an hour you can afford it.
for the rest of us, you can stretch the belts for a little longer.
A:
lol yeah money is deffinatly an issue. And as a newly wed couple, just now getting settled into a new state..yeah we have had to tighten our belts..Alot. I think thats what upsets me the most..I know ppl get scammed a little everyday (doesnt make it right..but it happens) ..it just seems to happen when you LEAST need something like that going on. know what I mean?
So I guess im glad me and my husband learned our lesson early on. And Next time we buy a vech. we are going to look into timing Chains...I rather a little warning...not this.."oh we cant really tell..Oops..it looks like it broke, heres a 2,000 bill."
..not nice...
A:
here's the problem in a nut shell.
What you paid for, was an oil change by a snot-nosed 16 y/o kid who knows the really important stuff. Where the oil drain plug is, where the oil filter is, and where the oil fill is.
Added to his vast capabilities, is how to check tire pressure, and how to check some minor things, such as air filter, brakes and other difficult items.
It really doesn't matter what they told you, because in order to properly "inspect" the timing belt, they would have to REMOVE the timing belt. Which is a multi-hundred dollar job, and is rather pointless at that point since its only an extra $60 or so to replace the timing belt.
The thing I don't understand about this situation though, is if you have 105K on the car, and it was the original belt, then what was the "debate"? The timing belt was past due. No matter what it looked like, it was needed.
So why would the service department NOT try to sell it to you? I can't say MY shop would have let such a tastie morsel out the door without an attempt of upsell. Unless the service writer that was helping you just doesn't have much interest in getting paid for her efforts anyway.....
Or were you informed it wasn't the original timing belt (it had been replaced before) and/or you weren't sure if it was...?
Service departs make money by selling work. Something seems odd here IMO.....
One other thing I would suggest though, its not a forgone conclusion that the belt broke due to age. Often tramatic failure such as this, is due to something else. A siezed waterpump or idler, or a failed tensioner, or even a partially siezed cam shaft. I know this won't make you feel any better about the situation, but even if they really had "inspected" the timing belt, that might not have changed the situation at all.
A:
and just two sentences later!
Nope....no upselling here!
What makes a crooked shop is two things: One, they sell things that don't need doing, because the customer is too clueless to know better. Two: They don't admit guilt when they mess something up charge the customer to fix it.
Thats a very black and white definition, and the grey area that will fall over these situations is rather hard to paint without some hard feelings.
Take the original post here. We have a situation where, a maintenance item was past due, the belt broke, but I there is no definite reason why it broke, and a shop told them that the belt "looked" OK. Now you could call that shop a "crook" for not telling them they were going to die if they drove the car so much as around teh block without replacing the belt that very minute......I can tell you from personal experience, that line of attack does not work well...even when it really IS true. Customers get uppity when you use the fire and brimstone line on them. They think you're insinuating that they are stupid (which we usually are...because its usually something kind important like brakes that are about to no longer "brake"!)
But really. How can ANYONE predict the life of a belt? You can't. You can make guesses, but they are just that.
I think you could, at the best, call this a inattentive oil change. The service writer didn't change what was written in the maintenance schedule in the owners manual. Yes, they should have recommended it, but recommending something doesn't make it more or less necessary. It also doesn't prevent things from breaking, things that very well could be completely unrelated!
I feel I work at a pretty legit shop. What breeds bad feelings, IMO, between customers and shops, is ignorance. People KNOW they are ignorant about cars, and they KNOW that they could be lied to at the counter, and not be able to tell. This sits in the back of their mind in all dealings with a shop, and they are constantly attempting to find flaws in what they are hearing. Even when everything goes perfectly smooth, they will never be truly happy because their car will be the same as it was before they brought it, and their checking account will be much lighter, and they don't even know if anything was actually done to the car. Its not a situation that breeds happiness, to put it lightly.
And thats not even getting into when things go wrong! Then it can get really ugly all the way around.....but a good shop is fair and up front. Simple as that. Hard to tell if you're not intimate with the workings. I fully understand
A:
that's just me, for my car. if the service manual for a customer's car said change the belts at 90k, i'd change them at 90k unless otherwise requested.
A:
I had never Heard of a timing belt before this point. I am not a car person, never have been. I usually left that up to my husband (I know better now *rolls eyes*) but the problem with that is he is military and is overseas alot..so had to become the person to take care of the car. So bascially, im still learning ..Everything about cars. So when the dealership says "the belt is fine" I took their word on it beliveing They are the experts, they will take care of it. The only reason I even Asked about the timing belt was because a friend of mine (who changed my oil for me once) said something about it. (this was a little while before the 105k was on the meter mind you).
I asked them to check the belt, they said they would. They never told me that it took takeing the car apart. So in all honestly, I cant tell you if they checked the belt or not. We got several things done to the car that day that took it staying at the shop all day..so I just assumed that that was what they were doing (like I said..I was very very nieve). I did know A little of what needed to be done with a timing belt though (thanks to my friend) ..that a water pump is wise to replace after changing a timeing belt...(mind I didnt know what that was or how long it took to replace) so I figured thats what was takeing so long..them having to remove that to check and see if the belt was ok, then replaceing it (which they charged me for by the way). As to Why they didnt catch that I needed to replace a belt at 105k ..I dont know. Maybe it was a screw up on their part (as well as mine for not knowing).
They never asked, nor did they inform me of anything. But it was the original because after asking my husband about it later, he had never had it changed..so it had to be an original (it was new when he baught it).
Its quite alright, me and my husband are in the proccess of getting it all worked out. But as for what else could have made this happen..im not so sure. We did have the car inspected ..16 and 24 point, fluids replace, ect ect. not but 3 weeks before..and had taken the car in a Second time (before the belt) because of a "hiccup" in the transmition (air bubbles). So if there were any other problems before that..I would have hoped it was caught..hell if they upselled me and told me that I needed this, this and this..just to keep my car going..I would have shelled out to avoid This. May sound stupid..but when you only have one car and you know little to nothing about them...you take the experts advice and run with it.
But yeah..they said it was the timing belt that broke when they looked at the car..so again..I guess we are takeing their word for it, yet again.
A:
they may have foreseen that it would snap, and bugger the entire engine. if a belt costs $30, they'd rather it snapped and you had to go to them for a $2,000 engine rebuild. if they just sell you the belt, potentially they're losing out.
A:
this is the popular conspiracy theory that many associate to shops, and I won't deny that there are a FEW shops out there that might follow such a strategy, but really....if this were the case, they would never recommend anything, would they?
Why recommend brakes, when you can not tell them, and the brakes wlll be metal to metal in a few months, and then you could sell rotors, and maybe justify calipers too? Same could be said about oil changes, tune ups etc.
MOST shops realise that unless you have a die-hard faithful customer, you try for what you can (legitamately or otherwise) when you have them there. You don't send them packing out the door in hopes they will be back. Since most shop employees are comission pay based, you want the money NOW, no some unforseen future time.
A:
Ah I got the Sheet back about what was broken on the car when the timing belt went out. Also I got the records of what we had done the first time we went in with the car.
since I dont have a scanner, ill just have to type it..sorry.
(that was our first visit, I couldnt find our second visit, my husband may have taken it with him when getting the AER and left it)
Ok this is the estimate they gave us for the damage AFTER the belt broke:
L.R Window Motor (this was not included in the damage, but it had been a problem for a while so we just thought to get it fixed as well while we were at it.)
Blower Motor Resistor
Wiper Blades (which i dont understand Why they have to be replaced, me and my husband replaced them ourselves threw walmart about a month or so ago so we opted out of them.)
Trans Solenoid Pack (i think I spelled that right..the handwritting is hard to read)
Tranny Sevice
Tranny Fluid
Cleaner
Plugs
Coolant Flush
Coolant
Thermostat
Timing Belt
Timing Belt Tensioner
Headgasket set (which is the most expensive about 600.00)
Valves Intake
Valves Exhaust
Exhaust Gasket
Coolant
Rolocs
Brakecleaner
L.O.F
..and thats about it
at the bottom they have sublet machine Shop and Diag..but i think that just means labor and who took a look at the car.
All in all the damages totaled up to about 2,339.32.
Does this look about right?