A&Q about 350Z
Q:
[rant]
This entire thing can be summarized in one sentence: I work at a Porsche shop.
The long story is that EVERYONE at the Porsche shop is all European, all the time. Okay, they're awesome cars, but I hate the attitude that accompanies the owners. If it's not European, it's not a real car. Okay, so Japan doesn't have the widely publicized history of European cars--who cares? Yeah it's cool to have momentos and pedigrees, but on the track, does it really matter?
I've got a good friend with an NA 944 who rode in my buddy's Stage V '91 twin turbo. He was commenting how it was fast but it just didn't feel as amazing as he was expecting it to be (I admit, I overhype stuff sometimes, but it's still the 2nd fastest car I've ever ridden in). Okay, that's fine to have your own opinion. But later, he rode in this guy's Ferrari 550 Maranello that was at his dad's shop and was going on and on about how quick the car was. Okay, that's fine too. But then he starting comparing it to the Z and how it felt astronomically better than the Z. Umm, yeah! It's a $200,000 car vs. a $13,000 car, what the hell do you expect?! Horsepower-wise, the Z only needs about 100 more to lay the smack down on that 550, but the dude acts like it's modded to its limit and could never be faster! And he's always knocking on my friends' cars too.
Another friend (who IS A TECHNICIAN at a prominent Porsche shop) was commenting that when his SR20 240SX is completed next month it will blow away 914's at the track. This same kid with the NA 944 was shaking his head and totally disagreeing, just on the foundation that a Nissan couldn't be better than a Porsche! He had no other reasoning or background behind what the car was equipped with!
Same thing with the guys at the shop--they're always joking that I should enter my car in Hot Import Nights with all the other ricers. WTF mate?
If you're still reading, I thank you, and the summary question is--when and why did people stop respecting fast, tastefully modified cars just because they weren't a certain nationality?
Oh yeah, and [/rant].
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Pete1978z: "It's not that I think stupidity should be punishable by death, I just think we should take the warning labels off of everything and let the problem take care of itself."
Post Edited (May 16, 7:58pm)
A:
remember when the term rice was barely starting out, they used to call rice 'euros'. even though the cars were japanese.. anyways people on the forum are kinda like that, they hate domestics..... i dont care bout that stuff' but i dont like european cars that much, they; cost too much, require too much maintenance, when it breaks whos gonna fix it, stoof like that
73' 240z: F54 4.2L, OS Giken LY DOHC Crossflow head, 17:3comp.ratio, N33, Tripple SU's, T10 Hybrid Draw-Through TT @ 47pds, Roots&Centrifugal Type supercharger, 3-2-1 headers, Centerforce 4 clutch, 6oz flywheel, R300 differential, Super-Hicas
A:
yeah there is a stigma to all things Japanese...it's alot better than it was in the 60s however. I used to sell cars and the guy who owned the dealerships, his dad got rich because back in the late 60s...NO ONE wanted to sell Japanese cars..his dad took a chance , started a Toyota dealership and really hit it big when they caught on...even worse though AMERICAN cars are now the stigma to a big part of the population...I think Z cars are a great value... I think they are way undervalued and we all should hang on to them.....I think they will gain value dramatically...I was actually looking for a used Mercedes before I bought by Z....lol..alot of it is just hype...people buy Nike shoes and other stuff...the Japanese are not very good at marketing in my opinion....
1976 280z 2+2 - Risen from the dead - garaged since 1988. Pallnet Fuel Rail and guage - ES rack and front bushings - 260Z 4Speed - Arizona Z Car Clutch - H4 Lights - Lots more to come...
A:
So that old riddle can be modified?
"What's the difference between a porcupine and a Porsche SHOP?"
Good post, though. It is sad but true.
'76 280Z driver, '75 parts car
A:
This is not a comparison test on horsepower or looks. This is an opinion on how the car drives.
The Z will never feel as good as a Ferrari no matter how much horsepower or money you put into it.
1993 300zx NA
A:
It's called ....
C O M P E N S A T I O N ....
LOL!
just paZZ'n thru
A:
Or a Lexus either...one of the nicest cars ever made in my opinion....not a Ferrari however...
1976 280z 2+2 - Risen from the dead - garaged since 1988. Pallnet Fuel Rail and guage - ES rack and front bushings - 260Z 4Speed - Arizona Z Car Clutch - H4 Lights - Lots more to come...
A:
You should hear guys who work in American car dealer garages on Japanese cars. They look at you like your stupid when they ask if you like ford gm or mopar and you say "datsun".
But yeah, euro car guys are the biggest jerks of all. Why? because it's goes deeper than just the cars.
Saying that, I'd love to work on rich ***holes Porches. But I'm just starting out, gonna be Mazda, Honda, or Nissan. Hopefully it'll be Nissan...
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Justin T
72 240Z L28, 5-speed
77 280Z 5-speed (t-boned 8-25-04)
80 280ZX automatic(retired)
A:
A lot of them GM people wouldnt switch even they started makin cars with square wheels...lol
Just got to thinkin...ya know the GM people are the worst of the worst when it comes to elitisim...which is an odd thing....
1976 280z 2+2 - Risen from the dead - garaged since 1988. Pallnet Fuel Rail and guage - ES rack and front bushings - 260Z 4Speed - Arizona Z Car Clutch - H4 Lights - Lots more to come...
Post Edited (May 16, 8:40pm)
A:
I totally know what you mean, it's a simliar thing with Saab Turbo drivers here but to more of a snobby degree. Nothing more satisfying than tearing a new a-hole for a 2000+ Saab Turbo with my beatup 86T Sleeper. I smoked one on the highway when I only had 3 gears (dont ask) and he gave it a real good go but lost me. The best solution is to just out-do these cars plain and simple, if your ride cant do it now then throw money at it :)
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
Post Edited (May 16, 8:34pm)
A:
If the internet was around back in the late '60s and early '70s the same story would have been posted. The Porsche folks have had that attitude for 50 years.
No matter how fast a Z car is in comparsion, for some people it's the sound, the look, the feel, the smell, the responsiveness, that sets the other car apart. Many "great european cars" have quirks that make them in some people's minds, special. No manner of logic or test drives in a Z will convince them otherwise.
A more practical solution is to a) let it go and live with it, or b) have Dan Baldwin come up behind them in his NA 240 and outdrive them around the track. I watched him take on several $65,000-$90,000. porsches at The Glen last year and these were driven by instructors who teach at that specific track.
After the guy driving a '72 XKE Jag was beaten by a Neon during an autocross event last year, the guy simply said, "at least I'm not driving home in a Neon". The porsche guys think the same......
A:
ouch..getting beat by a Neon would smart...lol
1976 280z 2+2 - Risen from the dead - garaged since 1988. Pallnet Fuel Rail and guage - ES rack and front bushings - 260Z 4Speed - Arizona Z Car Clutch - H4 Lights - Lots more to come...
A:
Or how about Ken Jones beating the **** out of the "ultimate handling " Lotus Elise at Sebring last year in his supercharged 280Z! I've seen the video and it's no BS!!
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
A:
There is a difference in "old money" and "new money".
The cars you speak of are "status" symbols and people who need those symbols usually have more money than sense and manners.
In short - they're just rich jerks and don't know how to treat other people with respect.
More often than not - the truely rich old moneyed people at least have a venire (coating) of manners even with working class people. They may not mean it but at least they have the courtesy not to act rudely or inconsiderately to others.
I have worked as a musician at some very high class functions and others.
In 30 years of Security work I have dealt with heads of state and the very wealthy down to street bums.
Real "class" is the person who makes you feel welcome in their home whether it's a shack or a mansion. Also someone who doesn't have to thank you for doing your job but thanks you out of kindness and respect for the job you did and means it.
Right now I can think of two examples:
1. Barbara Bush - What ever you think of Bush Sr. or Bush Jr. and their politics - Mrs. Bush is a great lady of the old school tradition and the Secret Service agents have great respect for her. I have actually been with them in our hospital and been thanked by Mrs. Bush with the other agents. She meant those thanks.
2. A nameless Street Person: An elderly black woman that had the carriage and bearing of Royalty: manners and breeding if you will - old out-of-date clothes but clean and pressed (upper middle class) and you could tell she was brought up as a proper lady.
She reminded me of one of my aunts.
She was obviously mentally ill ( estimated 80% of the homeless are) and after a couple of times of dealing with her it just broke my heart to have to turn her away from our Hospital - (long story - you have to ask for medical help or have a legitamate reason for being in a hospital after visiting hours).
All she would tell us is that God had told her to come here and she wanted to work for God. We have a large chapel and a Musilem prayer room in the hospital and a large staff of on-site and on-call clergey of all (or most) faiths.
We bent the rules a lot that weekend so she could be seen and helped by our Social Work dept. on Monday. I never did find out what became of her but I know they found her a shelter or half-way house.
Maybe she was called to the right place.
I didn't mean to preach a morality tale - but the thread reminded me of some of the peolpe I've met with and without "class".
Ed and Jeanne's
ZXelda 1981 280 ZXT: ZXena 1990 300 ZX
1941 Buick Special Sedanette (Betty)
1956 Dodge Royal (Dorothy)
1971 Buick Riviera (Rita)
1975 Ford F-150 Stepside (Fiona)
1992 Firebird (Frieda)
Post Edited (May 16, 9:17pm)
A:
Good post Erzelda...true class has nothing to do with money...
1976 280z 2+2 - Risen from the dead - garaged since 1988. Pallnet Fuel Rail and guage - ES rack and front bushings - 260Z 4Speed - Arizona Z Car Clutch - H4 Lights - Lots more to come...
A:
Problem with our American beliefs is this:
You can take some BAD Japanese noodles, give it an Italian name, and the person will say it's the best noodles in the world. Then,
You can take the BEST Italian noodles, give it a Japanese name, and person will say it's the worst noodles he had.
That's how it is in America. How that is related to cars, I have no idea. But you get the point.
Most people say Ferraris are the best, Porsches are the best, blah blah blah are the best, yet they don't even have the money to own one or have ever driven one. They're just regurgitating what they've read.
Also, for expample, would one dare to say Ferrari sucks, after just spending half a million on one?
People have the idea that because it's expensive, it must be good, even if it isn't good. Most companies try to milk on that idea.
********************
1975 280Z (Stock)
303 Emerald Green
A:
erzelda exactly. Class isnt money dependent nor is it car dependent. Ive got customers that come in everyday that own big blocks and yet they are still impressed with alot of the imports out there. It all depends on who you're dealing with and just because they own a porsche doesnt mean anything.
Currently parting out 1990 300zx TT.
A:
Follow my lead:
"Hey, is that one of those Corvair Kit-Cars?"
T-Shirt Front:
"I drive a Turbocharged, Air Cooled Six Cylinder"
On Reverse:
"A 1966 Corvair Corsa Turbo"
They tend to get a bit testy when reminded that during the heyday of the 70's, it was not uncommon for P-Cars to have engine swaps to Corvair for more power and reliability! And they really get upset when reminded that the turbo flat six was available in 1963 from GM....
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
replace the nissan with honda, and porsche with nissan and you might find some of them here.
1972 240Z, L28, R200, MSD (fuel system rework)
1991 CRX SI, many many mods
1982 280ZXT (engine and wheels are staying, everything else is going to the junkyard)
A:
280zxt good point.
Currently parting out 1990 300zx TT.
A:
Its more the 911 owners, my olds have a nice 928 s4. And the 911's basically snob them at porsche meets aswell as the other 928 owners because its not a "Real" porsche.
I've never been a big fan of porsche anyway.
1990 300zx TT Manual (2 Seater)
Sold - 1976 260z 2+2 Turbo, I'll miss you ol friend.
A:
just tell them they own a VW.
1972 240Z, L28, R200, MSD (fuel system rework)
1991 CRX SI, many many mods
1982 280ZXT (engine and wheels are staying, everything else is going to the junkyard)
A:
Don't get me wrong, I like ferrari's and lambos as much as anyone else. To all those saying how great they are though.. have YOU ever ridden in one? Driven one? I have a feeling most would be let down. True, the newest, baddest, 200k+ cars are great though.
Try driving an old 355. As old a z32 for example. It isn't any better than a 300zx twin turbo that is in great condition. Sure it handles different and has different power delivery, but the interior quality, rattles, throttle response, suspension transition, shifter feel, steering feel, etc., aren't THAT great. They may be 'special', but it is all relative. Much of it the z32 is superior. You don't buy a ferrari for performance, in most cases you can get the same or better for much else much cheaper, and it'll be 10x as reliable.
The F series ferrari's are different. But reality check, about 1,000 F series ferraris even EXIST. Most of them take 10k a year to keep running if you actually drive them, and 200k USED price tag. The normal 348's, 355's, test., etc. are about being FERRARI and not much else. The 348 did not impress me, as much as I was in disbelief I was driving a ferrari. A true ferrari owner will tell you half of the ferrari character is how it falls aparts on a religous basis.
European cars WERE superior. Frankly, that is not the case on almost any catagory in today's auto industry. The only place they were untouchable was cars like s600's, 8 series beamers, etc. However, 07 lexus ls460 now produces 400/400 and will soon defeat them in that market as well.
You want a godly race car from the factory, go buy a GT2 and rip it up. But it is going to cost you 20x more [seriously] than a built japanese car, and be less reliable. Your choice, doesn't matter to me one bit. But I agree, don't have an attitude about it. Reminds me of blind racism 100 years ago, obviously not to the same extent.
Want to impress me germans? Build a car on the same price level as the japanese that out perform them from reliability to performance. And I know how the markets work and that you wouldn't sell a car cheaper than someone would buy it, but I don't care.
Still waiting.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
Porsche owners have been some of the nicest car guys I've known. Not the brand-new Porsche owners... but the best guys are those who own a prior generation.
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1982 280zx
A:
All I can say is my personal experience has been way different.... PCA Maverick Region folks treat me like one of the family. They could care less what I drive, and think nothing of asking me to instruct newbies.
Ken
'82ZX n/a 2+2
'02 Sportster XL1200C
A:
Elitisim is a common human characteristic.
-ancient rulers were said to be the descendants of the gods
-theres the "royal blood" thing over in England (everywhere else it is called inbreeding)
- the colonish from England that settled in the new world had Manifest Destiny.today,they say, "God Bless America"
-people go to Ivy League schools and receive the same education as everyone else
-some people buy cars that they really cant afford or dont drive just to feel better about themselves
-some guys like Hugh Heffner,have good looking women all over the place to make other guys envious (but why be envious? Hugh cant do anything with these women,LOL)
-in
Z1,the older you get,the more you will realize that wisdom is greater than knowledge,wealth,possessions and fame.
If all were equal, none would be strong.
Ballistic,Ruler of Interstates
Stage XX+ 1993 Z32 NA
"SoulTaker"
A:
Are you seriously arguing with a guy that owns a 944. Really, tell this guy to save some money and buy a Toyota Celica instead. It looks the same but the Toyota won't be in the shop everyday.The 944 makes the Boxter look like the Bugatti of poor man Porsche.
Post Edited (May 17, 6:11am)
A:
944 was made for audi .. but they did not want so .. porsche made it the POS
You can sleep in your car, but cant drive in your house
if you are fully in control, you are not driving fast enough!
79 ZXR 46K!
81 ZXT EURO 2+2
83 ZXT
All fine Fastback winnabego's
A:
They have to justify the cost somehow, talking bad about anything else is easy and it really boost their ego.
Matt
A:
Alot of people forget about the legend & myth of car manufacturers that go racing on a full time basis. Ferrari has always sold their production cars to fund their racing efforts. This has come at a cost to their customers who don't get the real deal as far as track car's tech & quality transfered to daily road use. So some major wins from the 50's & 60's and you have the legend being born. Porsche is the same way. They were leaders in endurance racing in 60's & early 70's. Although their cars were built a little better than Ferrari's. You still had to mod the car to if want to go racing. That's true for any car including the Z in all its incarations. One wonders what legend & hype there would be if Nissan had backed a factory team for the full 36 years of the Z. I also believe all car manufacturers have their lemons and their good vehicles.
This whole world smells bad, I'd buy another if I had
back what I paid for another mother@#$%@# in a motorcade
A:
There was a debate on another forum I go on about "emotion" in a car. Some guy told me that there was no way any Japanese car could have the same "emotion" as a Ferrari or Porsche. I told him that it was BS! I guess he has never heard of Mr. K or the profound effect the Z-car has had on the automotive world.
Does he think that Nissan engineers walk around with a stick up their butt and Ferrari engineers sit around drinking beer and telling jokes? How can a car even have "emotion"?
It's all just perception from years ago: Italy = expensive, Japan = econobox. It's probably partly because most people think of Italians as an emotional group of people while Japanese are perceived to be more uptight and reserved.
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1976 Datsun 280Z 2+2:
-'81 L28ET with 1984 Z31 ECCS
-'81 Turbo snowflakes
-205/60/15 BFG G-Force Sports
-Tokico springs and HP shocks
Post Edited (May 17, 2:13pm)
A:
If you get continually hassled by the "Euro" crowd, just tell them that the internals of the Z were pretty buch stolen out of a BMW or a Merc. When they don't believe you just throw a bunch of discarded Bosch boxes at them (Most of us should have empty boxes somewhere in the car, check under the seat or in the glove box)
Anyway, myself I have 5 BMW's and the Datsun fits in PERFECTLY with them. All Inline 6's, some have turbos, all are Bosch (and megasquirt) controlled. Working on all these cars is pretty similar.
At least Datsun didn't steal some Godda*n stolen GM piece of crap technology, do they even plate their fasteners these days?Taking GM technology would be like cheating off a special ed kid in a math test.
Don't bother refuting that because you know its true ;) lol
A:
I like the feel of the 240z and the z31/z32. But the 240z is the one that sticks out. The interior is so old school and nice looking. It looks like a real interior. And the car has that old british sports car feel.
The truth is the porsches have better driving quality. They arn't as economised. It's just math, they spent far more on it to give it a sports car feel.
The owners/etc can be jerks though. We all know that.