Q:
First they were arresting people who were being plastered while still in bars or walking home. Now look what's happening in New York. How far is this going to go?
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-04-24-breathalyzer-usat_x.htm
3 Zs, 1 "Rusty", 4 more to go
A:
welcome to the Brave New World
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'74 2+2 -- MSA sway bars, Illuminas, Eibach Progressive, Energy Suspension
L28 with MN47, 240Z rods, milled down dished pistons (11.6:1 CR) and 240sx tranny
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committing suicide in small managable payments
A:
Gee, if they won't let you drive with some alcohol on your fingers, they had better not let people taking heart medication drive. Or those with the chance of seizure (epileptics). Oh, or those taking Prozac, because it's also a psychoactive drug. In fact, unless you have 20/20 vision and are not taking any medications, you should not be allowed to drive at all! Ever!
A sleepy driver is more dangerous than some people who have had a beer. But they don't test for sleepiness before letting you drive either...
A:
thats crazy! they might as well put the money there gonna use to make the ignition modules, towards makings cars that just drive themselvs!
'72 240z.silver-ish
n47 light port n polish.
rebuilt n47 block. flat top pistons.
re-ground cam.softer valvetrain
centerforce df clutch..4:11 diff.
msd ignition. msa ceramic coated headers
turbo exhaust with dynomax muffler.
A:
thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard.. find a sober person walking down the street and have them blow into the breathalizer.. haha
-1988 300zxt Shiro SS edition, 120,000 miles
A:
I know people who have had too many DUI's and had to have that ignition setup on their car. They just get someone else to blow into it for them. I've heard they've figured out how to use small pocket fans with a funnel to direct the air to trick it up too.
______________________________________________________________________________
77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
It will NEVER be installed in all cars. Even drunks will know that all you need to defeat such a thing is a 99 cent turkey baster and "BAM!", a clean breath of air and the car starts.
A:
"Or those with the chance of seizure (epileptics). "
But those people are ALREADY forbidden in most states from holding a license!
"Unexplained or uncontrolled blackouts" tend to disqualify one from holding motor vehicle driver's certifications...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
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All you idiots who cry "they" should do something always seem upset when "They" actually come up with ideas to protect us from ourselves!
Learn to be RESPONSIBLE for your own life, and depend on a GOVERNMENT less, and you will be amazed.
Suing McDonalds for "hot coffee" really helped everyone didn't it?
Suing GM for saddle mounted gas tanks 20 years after they went out of production really helps everyone, doesn't it?
I could go on and on...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
A friend of mone had one in his car. It would randomly go off while driving about every 10 minutes. With the way he had to blow into the device, I don't see how a small fan or turkey baster would trick the device as you have to blow very hard and for some time
..................................................
A:
But hey, it's ZC.C....
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
I am tired of the government "protecting" me.
"Those would trade Liberty for security, deserve neither"
-Benjamin Franklin
1976 280z 2+2 - Risen from the dead - garaged since 1988. Pallnet Fuel Rail and guage - ES rack and front bushings - 260Z 4Speed - Arizona Z Car Clutch - H4 Lights - Lots more to come...
Post Edited (Apr 27, 7:26am)
A:
"I don't see how a small fan or turkey baster would trick the device as you have to blow very hard and for some time"
Really?
Do you REALLY think it's that hard to find a very low pressure, very low volume source of "air" to satisfy this thing? Drunks can still be imaginative.
A:
In a way it shows the ignorance portions of our society has toward alcohol.
The person that goes to a bar occasionally and has a few drinks isn't the real menace. The real menace is the person that has a physical problem with the stuff, and believe me thats what it is.
Until they realize that the person has a physical problem and treats them for that, instead of as a social cretin nothing's going to change. Blindly and ignorantly throwing more obstacles in peoples paths isn't solving a damn thing. You are only serving to give people who make a mistake a criminal record which haunts them the rest of their lives once they get their lives straight.
76', 4 Speed, CAI, 6 into 2 Headers
Of all the things I've lost in life I miss my mind the most.
A:
The story came out of NY? Why does that not surprise me?
1973 240Z 4 screw SU's, Tokico HP's, Toyota Calipers
1946 Willys-Overland CJ-2A (restoration in progress)
2006 Ural Gear-Up
A:
The other story came out of Texas. That doesn't surprise me either.
A:
Tony D said:
>
>>"Or those with the chance of seizure (epileptics). "
>
>But those people are ALREADY forbidden in most states from holding a
>license!
>"Unexplained or uncontrolled blackouts" tend to disqualify one from
> holding motor vehicle driver's certifications...
Well, Tony, you must be living in Tonyland, since you're close but wrong. Nearly all states allow a person who has seizures to drive a car after 6 months to 2 years of time without an episode. Epileptics tend to avoid telling doctors about episodes to avoid this bar on driving.
If you would like to read more, here is an article:
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/27/1728_61054.htm
A:
How do so few people get to have so much influence? I don't know anyone who thinks we need more government (help or otherwise) but it keeps on growing & with technology, becoming more intrusive. Sorry state of affairs.
Anyone can drive a new car.
A:
This will go great with our handy new GPS tracking devices!
---------------
1982 280zx
A:
I wonder if it could tell if you've been eating turkey...
doesnt turkey make you sleepy???
well the turkey baster idea is out the door....
youth is wasted on the young
A:
If you've ever been the victim, had a friend who was a victim, or seen the results of a drunk driving accident, I think you might feel differently about this.
What's worth more to you? That "Big Brother" is not watching you, making sure you don't drive while intoxicated? Or would you rather the frightening statistics of people killed each year in a drunk driving accident continue to rise? Would you like to be a statistic yourself?
The trick to understanding the positive aspects of this is to get out of your fluffy comfortable bubble of ignorance. DUI accidents are not what you see on CSI or NYPD Blue, or anywhere on TV, not even the news. You don't arrive on the scene of such an accident to bodies covered in sheets and twisted metal. You arrive to see a man's brains splattered on the windshield, while a woman in the backseat lies bleeding from the head holding her dead baby. Welcome to the real world. THAT is the result of drunk driving. You will never see that on T.V. Statistics mean alot more when you see them in person.
"Until they realize that the person has a physical problem and treats them for that, instead of as a social cretin nothing's going to change. Blindly and ignorantly throwing more obstacles in peoples paths isn't solving a damn thing. You are only serving to give people who make a mistake a criminal record which haunts them the rest of their lives once they get their lives straight."
It simply does not work like that. First of all, for alcoholism (which I assume is the "physical problem" you're speaking of) the alcoholic has to willingly commit to fixing his own problem. The alcoholic has to admit his own alcoholism. Its a nice looking concept, being able to treat people for such things as alcoholism, or delinquency maybe. But how exactly are you going to go out and find every alcoholic? Do you think they wear a sign, or a hat maybe that says, "I LIKE BEER WAY TOO MUCH"? You only know that these people exist when something happens that brings them out into the open. In the case of alcoholics, this is something like public intoxication, or a drunken barfight maybe, or a hospital admittance for alcohol poisoning, or in the worst case a DUI accident. By then, it's far too late.
Personally, I think it's brilliant. I am very willing to sacrifice maybe 5 seconds of my time when I get in my car with the hope that it will keep some drunken idiot of the streets. Maybe then, I'll never have to see things like what I mentioned above again.
1991 NA 300ZX (z32) Slicktop Coupe, Cherry Red, Pacesetter Monza Exhaust, JWT Pop-charger intake, stainless steel 3" midpipes with high-flow cats.
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I thought the McDonalds thing was pretty rediculous the way the media presented it but after hearing the case records for it, I think it was right on. They made it sound like it was a normal temperature for anyone to drink (or at least those that like it hot) coffee and she did spill it on herself.
The only problem was the part where they felled to report the coffee was nearly boiling - I believe that McD's has a policy of keeping the coffee at 185 degrees but variations do happen. And the third degree burns over her groin, thighs, stomach and the actual scolding of her pelvic bones from the temperature. That is some hot coffee.
I am not sure that I feel good about drinking something knowing that if I spill it on myself that I will have to have skin grafs done if I do not immediately remove the hot liquid in less than 2 seconds.
1993 300zx NA
A:
"very low volume"
Those devices do not take a very low volume. You have fallen for the urban myth.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
"The person that goes to a bar occasionally and has a few drinks isn't the real menace."
Actually, repeat offenders are not necessarily alcoholics with a physical dependency.
It IS the "social drinker" that thinks they have a "handle on it" that IS the primary problem.
Drop the acceptable level to .04 BAC, and make it clear that prosecutions, fines and impoundments WILL occur, and this is an item that will become a non-issue.
I have lived overseas where such laws are in effect (and are in effect in the USA for commercial drivers) and there is nowhere near the drunk driving problem we have here in the USA.
The only tolerance is zero tolerance. You drink, you don't drive.
It really IS that simple!
That is the mentality in most of the rest of the world. Why not here?
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
"Nearly all states allow a person who has seizures to drive a car after 6 months to 2 years of time without an episode. Epileptics tend to avoid telling doctors about episodes to avoid this bar on driving."
And how the HELL is what I posted ANY DIFFERENT than the argumentative swarf you have just thrown up there.
To Refresh everyone's memory:
"But those people are ALREADY forbidden in most states from holding a license!
"Unexplained or uncontrolled blackouts" tend to disqualify one from holding motor vehicle driver's certifications..."
It's not "tonyland" you moron! You just agreed that THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DRIVE until they have PROVEN they have NOT had a blackout or seizure for a set period of time to show their disease is under control.
And then go on to say that as a class, they tend to LIE TO GET THEIR LICENSES.
If they have to LIE to get their licenses, would that mean that IF THEY BLACK OUT OR HAVE SEIZURES THEY WOULD BE BANNED FROM DRIVING?
Er...YEAH!
Man, fighting a battle of wits with an argumentative ignoramus is just BORING.
Next time, have a valid point when you vomit on your keyboard a post that tries to be argumentative with me, but ends up only REINFORCING EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE!
(Rolls Eyes)
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Apr 28, 12:39am)
A:
Zombie is speaking from seeing the carnage.
I am NOT for this on every new vehicle, but I AM for it on anybody who has been tagged for DUI or similar incidences, or on any veihcle owned or driven by anyone below 21 years of age.
You get a DUI, and you have PROVEN your judgement is impaired when it comes to drinking and making the responsible choice about driving afterward. Under 21, you aren't to be trusted, period. Sorry, that's the way it is if you want a license "Probation", same as graduated licenseing in most states now.
Like I said, I have lived in countries where the DUI limit is .04BAC, half what it is in most states here in the USA, and in those countries, DUI simply isn't a problem. Matter of fact it's very rare indeed.
It just takes self confidence and half a brain to know you don't drink and drive.
Idiots will argue the other side of this...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
"I believe that McD's has a policy of keeping the coffee at 185 degrees "
Oh gawd, a nannystatist!
Brewing of coffee in ANY situation involves the sutff being heated to 185 to 200 degrees F.
Storing it at elevated temperatures keeps it from being discarded due to federal food safety regulations.
Statistical controls say the hotter you keep the coffee, the better chance you have to not turn it into an solution of an Autoclave Environment (anything above 100, but below 140 degrees) where bacteria gro like MAD!
Guess where scalding of the skin occurs:
140F.
So they keep it in STORAGE below the point where it scalds, they run the HIGH RISK of bacterial contamination of the vessel.
The keep it above there and food poisioning cases become a non-issue.
Damned it you do, damned if you don't.
It's never the person's responsibility to ASK FOR ICE IN THE COFFEE, it's McDonald's responsibility to.... oh waitaminit, get busted by a government inspector looking for vessels below 140 degrees and fine them....or serve it hot....
Curious how ignorance is rampant on all aspects of that case.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
>To Refresh everyone's memory:
>"But those people are ALREADY forbidden in most states from holding a
> license!
Maybe you didn't write what you meant to say.
You state: Epileptics are forbidden in most states from holding a license. (as you wrote above)
I state: Epileptics are allowed to have licenses in most states.
(as I posted before)
Tony, I can confidently say that epileptics are NOT FORBIDDEN from holding driver's licenses any more than you are forbidden for not having 20/20 vision. You wear glasses to control failed eyesight, they use medication to control failed nervous system, same difference.
>You just agreed that THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DRIVE until they have
> PROVEN they have NOT had a blackout or seizure for a set period of time
> to show their disease is under control.
Next you'll tell me that you are forbidden from driving your car, because you had to take a vision test first.
>REINFORCING EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE!
No, it's not. Thanks for coming out though.
>Man, fighting a battle of wits with an argumentative ignoramus is just
> BORING.
Idiots will argue the other side of this.
A:
>and she did spill it on herself.
Technically, I suppose, but remember she wasn't driving the vehicle. She was a passenger. I don't know if it was clear if the spill was a result of the driver or if she was just incompetent.
A:
"Those devices do not take a very low volume. You have fallen for the urban myth."
I read what the manufacturters say so it's hardly a myth. Most use a 2-5 second "breath" so it's not nearly as much hot air as you seem to be capable of.
Get with the real world. All a drunk needs to do is blow up some 5 cent balloons before drinking. Come on and THINK for a minute. UNSUPERVISED breath testing is as useless as UNSUPERVISED urine testing.
A:
Tony, I agree with your point several posts above. The system now in most places is that such devices are mandatory for repeat offenders; and there are many places that do not use this technology. Moving it up a notch from repeat offenders to first time offenders would be beneficial, but I think it would only be a step in the right direction. By the time a person has their first DUI offense, that conviction may come with a manslaughter charge. By then it's far too late for the victim.
Hybrid77z, you make a good point. However, I doubt this technology will be released and utilized until it is perfected; as in, it can overcome all of these ways of circumventing it. It will be a long time, a LONG time, until they can perfect it, and until it is inexpensive enough to be installed in every vehicle.
A LONG time. By then, we might all be riding monorails, or segways, or the planet will be destroyed by an alien race, or the communists maybe. =D
1991 NA 300ZX (z32) Slicktop Coupe, Cherry Red, Pacesetter Monza Exhaust, JWT Pop-charger intake, stainless steel 3" midpipes with high-flow cats.
A:
"I doubt this technology will be released and utilized until it is perfected"
Actually my point is that even with PERFECT technology, any unsupervised test is pointless. I can see a new business springing up outside bars, a sober person will charge $5 to start your car for you. Duh!
Why should I pay for things to be installed in all cars when it solves nothing?
A:
"I read what the manufacturters say so it's hardly a myth. Most use a 2-5 second "breath" "
"I Read"
What else are we to expect from ZC.Com Postings....much like the idiots who "read" Car and driver and then pontificate on which sports car is "better" than others based on what they "read"...
Show me a turkey baster that will supply sufficient volume AT SUFFICIENT FLOW for even 2 seconds to satisfy the interlock device, and I will post a website at my own expense and tout the "miracle baster that defeats drunk interlocks"!
You truly are an idiot thinking such a device can supply a brethalyzer with what it needs!
Every TRY to fool one?
What you "read" is a lot different that everyday practical reality!
Much like kids in college who "read" a lot of theories (like Marx, or any Engineering Ductloss Book)---what happens in the real world doesn't keep up with the eggheaded "theory" of "something that should work"...
Are you related to Steve280Z? Benchracing on items you have never tried, and are just spouting conjecture and theory, regardless of what real world results show?
Methinks so. Shut thy yap, thou art speaking from thine Anal-Pore!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Parse the hell out of it, misquote it out of context.
People who have blockouts need to lie to get a license in most every state.
That means a truthful epileptic will not be allowed to drive!
As they say in England, you argumentative, parsing, nitpicking prick: "Fu*koff!" (Shows the reversed "Peace Sign" and walks off...)
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Yes, I have a friend that manufactures them so yes, I have seen how easy it is to defeat them first hand.
A:
"I can see a new business springing up outside bars, a sober person will charge $5 to start your car for you. Duh!"
Moron: Read the annual report from Ingersoll-Rand and do some checking on the status of Biometric Keys. Like your foolishly elementary theory on Turkey Basters, this will unlikely work, either!
I suppose you were conceived using a Turkey Baster, this is why you have such an infinity for the "technology"....
(Rolls Eyes)
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Tony,
You ever heard of valet parking? There will be no biometric keys unless they make them for every part time valet person in the country. So yea, $5 and someone will not only start your car for you but they will even open the door for you to get into it! Most bars will probably offer this "service" if breathalyzers are mandated. Duh!
If you would THINK for a minute, you might see how dumb you sound about technology limitations in the "real world".
Post Edited (Apr 28, 8:22am)
A:
You always seem to be an expert on every subject Tony. You must read everything and have the educational background to reference what you read accordingly. I do not see the argument that the minimum 140 degrees to prevent bacteria (which I have never heard of being a problem in a beverage - but I do not read the vast quantity of scientific volumes you do) justifies keeping the coffee 45 degrees hotter at 185.
What is more amazing is almost everyone else in our fast food country arena (better compare same type of establishments) keeps it at 165 degrees. Are you saying that McDonalds is looking out for its customers more so than the others that have no care for the health of its patrons?
PS The only bad idea about the mass installment of BAC units in vehicles is the added cost and compexity to each vehicle - plus the inconvenience as well. The skin system would eliminate the last of course.
And all prevention systems should be thought of in a general enforcement way. You can not catch everyone who wants to drink and drive but it will stop most (I would say 80 to 95%) and that is the whole purpose.
PSS If we had a greater system of mass transit we would have less drinking and driving problems.
There is always personal responsibility but that is just what is says - personal, not a macro or general policy. You cannot rely on everyone having that.
1993 300zx NA
Post Edited (Apr 28, 11:39am)
A:
"PS The only bad idea about the mass installment of BAC units in vehicles is the added cost and compexity to each vehicle - plus the inconvenience as well"
No, for us law abiding citizens, the other "bad idea" is that we also have to put up with the added DANGER when such systems are installed in our cars. Danger in the form of having to locate, blow, and wait every time you NEED your engine to be running. Danger in the form of when you NEED your car to start and the unit malfuctions or mis-reads.
Punish the guilty, NOT the innocent.
A:
The blood alcohol test unit discussion is amusing and slightly illuminating.
As a food policy/safety expert, the coffee discussion is hilarious (and sad). Coffee is supposed to be freaking hot! It is steeped at near 212F (at sea level, lower temp at higher elevations). That's how you make it, for Christ's sake!
Bacterial growth is NOT a problem at lower temperatures in coffee unless it sits for a VERY long time (days). It doesn't have enough protein/sugar to support bacterial growth. Milk on the other hand is a near perfect bacterial growth medium. (try this, if you leave pot of coffee sit on counter for two weeks, all you'll find is a bit of mold -- fungi -- growing on surface. Not bacteria)
Tony D: you're wrong. You wrote that coffee must be kept above "an solution of an Autoclave Environment (anything above 100, but below 140 degrees) where bacteria gro like MAD!"
What are you talking about, dude? Me thinks YOU are eminating BS from your anterior pore. An autoclave is a device to steam & pressure sterilize surgical tools, glassware, growth media (such as when I was in grad school), etc. It brings stuff up to a temp of at least 121 degree C moist heat, which kills everything that'll hurt you (these conditions are actually ideal for chemotrophic bacteria that live at deep ocean vents, but they aren't likely to be floating around your office or home kitchen)
Why does McD and others keep coffee hot? Because cold coffee sucks! No restaurant anywhere is going to get gigged for keeping coffee at 140-160, or 185F for that matter, either for food safety or physical safety. There is no HACCP regulation for hot coffee at a minimum temperature.
If you buy hot coffee, be careful. If your driver jerks the car and you spill it, don't blame the restaurant that "the hot coffee was too hot." What the hell did you expect MORON?
ANYONE who claims that it's McDs responsibility to keep coffee at a "safer" temperature is a complete moron who is duped by trial lawyers. Give us a break! And we wonder why everyone is so worried about getting sued. Geez.
Alex
'77 280Z
'69 2000 roadster (fathers, but I'm the pseudotechnician)
A:
"Applying the principles of comparative liability, the jury found that McDonald's was 80% responsible for the incident and Liebeck was 20% at fault. Though there was a warning on the coffee cup, the jury decided that the warning was neither large enough nor sufficient. They awarded Liebeck US$200,000 in compensatory damages, which was then reduced by 20% to US$160,000."
Additional funds were punitive on McDonalds for ignoring hundreds of other hot coffee suits.
"Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonald's had dropped to 158 degrees Fahrenheit."
Note that the awards were not for the temperature, but for the lack of warnings.
Post Edited (Apr 28, 4:35pm)
A:
Hybrid, when I said perfected, I meant PERFECTED. As in there will be no plausible way to circumvent it.
That would likely mean some sort of technology that identifies that persons particular breath, and will not falter if that person has eaten or had something (non-alcoholic) to drink, or maybe just has a breathmint. How would it work? No clue. Maybe DNA, but the technology to identify DNA that quickly from just a breath sample wont be around for awhile.
I always find it intriguing how everyone gets so scared and blows these things way out of proportion. All it takes is one little tidbit or internet article to throw the whole internet into a stir. It is going to be a LONG time before such things as this become possible, and even then there are all colors and consitencies of political tape to get through.
But, if this were possible now, and there was a national vote, I would still vote yes.
Oh, and Hybrid, I also understand your point about the safety issue. That would definately be a problem, and that's something I didnt think about. But thats also something that would have to be thought through and taken care of before this is implemented.
1991 NA 300ZX (z32) Slicktop Coupe, Cherry Red, Pacesetter Monza Exhaust, JWT Pop-charger intake, stainless steel 3" midpipes with high-flow cats.
A:
Hah, so people are now so stupid that restaurants have to specifically inform them that coffee is hot? ***boisterous laughter ensues***
Anyway, seriously.........on the drunk thing. Zombie, it sounds like you have some first-hand exposure to the consequences of this sort of thing. I shudder to think what kind of stuff you've seen. Yes, it's a bad thing. And your feeling is that such horrible occurrences must be stopped, this is paramount and takes a considerable priority. Correct?
Unfortunately this sort of appeal to the emotions is one of the primary reasons certain types of bad laws get passed. As a firearms enthusiast, I've seen NUMEROUS examples of it in gun-control (correction: gun-restriction) laws and philosophy. The truth is, FREEDOM COSTS. It's not just the cost associated with protecting it from outsiders, which is generally dealt with mainly by our armed forces. Those who wish to be free also have to be willing to live with the risks such freedom presents. Those risks include the possibility that another citizen is going to abuse those freedoms and possibly cause harm or death to themselves or others. Now, such actions are not right, and must be dealt with. And the populace needs to be aware of the fact that such actions WILL be dealt with and carry high penalties. But don't take away personal freedoms, deal with the people who abuse them.
What tends to happen is some horrible tragedy or series of tragedies is cited, and the general feeling is "oh NO this is horrible, we CANNOT let it happen again!" So a plan is designed.........laws, restrictions, whatever. It may infringe upon personal liberty, but the rationale here is "we don't mind giving up a LITTLE freedom and endure some inconvenience for these safety measures....if it stops ONE accident, it's worth it!" This approach represents a very narrow view of things. We need to step back and consider what the measures in question are doing to fundamental parts of the system, not just how they affect the limited circumstances that they are intended to influence.
Actually, 9/11 is a good example. Despite a fairly good history of airline safety, the nation went into panic mode. "We CAN'T let this happen again! We must remove all possibility that any such thing could ever happen!" How many times in the nation's past had someone hijacked an airliner and flown it into a heavily-populated area? How likely is it that such a thing would happen again? Possible? Sure........in fact it still is QUITE possible. Likely? Hardly. But we panicked. We even went further than the airlines and tried to extrapolate the situation to all sorts of other possible things along these lines that could happen, and took extreme measures in an attempt to eliminate what small chance there was that these imagined situations could ever actually materialize (this will ring true with any pilots reading this....or model-aircraft enthusiasts.......or amateur rocket builders.......or geo-mappers.......). Now just look at the "homeland security" mess we have now. Just don't try to shift the blame, if you're one of the people who freaked out after 9/11 and demanded good ol' Big Bro do something about it.
It's not about an extra 5 minutes when you get in your car. It's not even about draconian protect-us-from-ourselves measures for our cars. It's about personal freedom.
"Punish the guilty, NOT the innocent." <--- EXACTLY!
Post Edited (Apr 28, 10:01pm)
A:
mattb, I have to agree whole heartedly with what you said:
"The truth is, FREEDOM COSTS. ... Those who wish to be free also have to be willing to live with the risks such freedom presents."
This is exactly what 9/11 showed us, we shouldn't change the way we do things just because a plane might crash, or we lose freedom. Adding more requirements to starting the vehicle with breath testers, drug tester, sleep testers, etc. turns it into a lack of freedom for safety's purpose.
A:
There has been a "valet switch" for as long as their have been people smart enough to figure out what valets do when you hand your car to them.
Talke about someone ignorant of technological properties, or it's limitations.
Come into the 20th century, luddite.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Question ONE Addressed:
"but I do not read the vast quantity of scientific volumes you do) justifies keeping the coffee 45 degrees hotter at 185."
What would the 3-sigma limit be for the control chart with a 150 moving average over 24 hours?
Please define the UCL, LCL, and Moving average for a 3 Sigma control process where the minimum acceptable LCL is 150 degrees F.
I don't have to explain it, statistics will do it, as that is how you get a Big Mac in Bangcock that tastes the same as a Big Mack in Bangor Maine.
It's not hard to follow if you even have elementary mathematics in High School.
No great scientific knowledge needed. Hell even the first volume of McD's MDP Program will tell you this, and any 18 year old management trainee should be able to tell you that.
When it doubt on temperatures, always keep it hotter to prevent the chance of bug growth...
Elementary.
Question TWO addressed:
"Are you saying that McDonalds is looking out for its customers more so than the others that have no care for the health of its patrons?"
When they are the one every shyster in the country is gunning for the big money deal.....
Yes.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Apr 29, 5:18am)
A:
"Bacterial growth is NOT a problem at lower temperatures in coffee unless it sits for a VERY long time (days)."
Go to some places, and you will see the coffee urn in such conditions. Especially in 24 hours operations where sanitization every 24 hours (like at McD's) occurs...
Another case of them "looking out for corportate liability, but getting sued forf keeping it hot is the other end of the liability problem.
"An autoclave is a device to steam & pressure sterilize surgical tools, glassware, growth media (such as when I was in grad school), "
And using them at lower temperature to grow bacterial cultures in auger solutions is also a common usage. Incubation at lower temperatures makes it grow nicely.
"There is no HACCP regulation for hot coffee at a minimum temperature."
Depending on the state, "held food products" do have aminimum temperature to hold them. Anythng in McD's "warmer" must be monitored to keep it above XXX degrees and then it allows it to be kept for 10 minutes....
Hmmmmmmm...
"ANYONE who claims that it's McDs responsibility to keep coffee at a "safer" temperature is a complete moron who is duped by trial lawyers. Give us a break! And we wonder why everyone is so worried about getting sued. Geez."
As long as you agree with me that temperatures below where they used to keep it is "safer" than the eleveated temprearures, then at least one this that we agree upon is clear" people who sue McD's for coffee that is "too hot" because they aren't smart enough to ask for ice are morons!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
"Note that the awards were not for the temperature, but for the lack of warnings."
Which leads us to the wonderfully insightful warning on towel-loop dispensers:
Do not place head or neck in loop, serious injury or death will result.
Eventually these environmentally-friendly devices will simply be litigated out of existence because of idiots with no brains looking for big brother to protect them from their own incompetence!
Like JARTS, or any number of other items that reasonably intelligent people used responsibly for YEARS with no incident, but which morons continually kept screwing up through a case of Darwinisim turned awry through the helpo of the leech-like trial lawyers association...
Idiots.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
http://www.rupissed.com/
_____________________________________________
'05 350Z Chrome Silver Touring
'73 240Z
A:
Precisely, a Valet switch.
There are ways to circomvent the system, and some are BUILT IN.
That's what I'm saying, that they can be circomvented by anyone(as you just pointed out). Since the testing is UNSUPERVISED, there are probably hundreds of other ways to intruduce a sample into the chamber that will test "clean" of alcohol.
Just look at the disposable tip on these things. Get a length of 5 cent a foot hose at Lowes that slips over the tip and BAM! You can blow a sample that is diluted enough to pass.
Are that THAT thick as to not understand how a simple chemical sampler only reads what you send it?
A:
"Hybrid, when I said perfected, I meant PERFECTED. As in there will be no plausible way to circumvent it. that would likely mean some sort of technology that identifies that persons particular breath, and will not falter if that person has eaten or had something (non-alcoholic) to drink, or maybe just has a breathmint. How would it work? No clue. Maybe DNA, but the technology to identify DNA that quickly from just a breath sample wont be around for awhile."
Dude,
If you think that waiting 10 seconds for a sample and analysis is long, just wait till a DNA sampler is installed. Be prepared to wait hours.
But you see, even a DNA tester will not work when samples are taken UNSUPERVISED. Come on, THINK. JUst blow up a few balloons ahead of time and you have portable clean samples stored for testing later.
You just don't get it. UNSUPERVISED testing will not work. You are trying to say that pro baseball players should be allowed do their own urine tests at home and test for drugs/steroids. That is just a dumb idea as "trusting" repeat drunk drivers to provide their own samples.
A:
You talk more crap than anyone I know here Tony;
Quote:
What would the 3-sigma limit be for the control chart with a 150 moving average over 24 hours?
Please define the UCL, LCL, and Moving average for a 3 Sigma control process where the minimum acceptable LCL is 150 degrees F.
I don't have to explain it, statistics will do it, as that is how you get a Big Mac in Bangcock that tastes the same as a Big Mack in Bangor Maine.
It's not hard to follow if you even have elementary mathematics in High School.
Yes, it would be hard to follow if you have elementery mathematics. But since I made it to my 4th year chemical engineering level I know exactly what those are since probability and statistics are required course for any engineering course work.
I also had logistics in the numeroues required math classes and this has no logical place here.
They kept their coffee hotter than anyone else for no reason you have stated. They had hundred of scalds and injuries from it over the previous decade and were fully aware of it. They settled those cases for medical expenses and chose not on this one.
Do I expect my coffee to be hot? Yes.
Do I expect to get burned a little if I spill some on myself? Yes.
Do I expect to recieve third degree burns so horrific that the heat burns the actual bone under my muscle, fat and skin? No.
1993 300zx NA
A:
ZinSeattle brings up a good point. The coffee that burned her must have been insanely hot to do the damage that it did. I'll bet that particular McDonalds was serving at 220f or something.. it did serious damage.
I'm not so sure $160,000 is a very large reward (and we don't know what she got from McDonalds in the end) when you have had to graft skin, the hospital probably charged her $50,000. Again, we're not talking about the pecuniary damages that her action was not responsible for.
Zombie said:
>Hybrid, when I said perfected, I meant PERFECTED. As in there will be no
> plausible way to circumvent it.
There will always be a way to circumvent it. Imagine the case where the driver rewires the car with a secondary wiring system. You would have to encrypt a token and share the key between the analyzer and the ECU on the car, and prevent evesdropping. Even those systems are cracked on a daily basis today.
Post Edited (Apr 29, 12:18pm)
A:
No, you totally disregarded the boimetrics argument introduced, which will totally negate your assertations.
But of course you overlook them, they blow you out of the water.
You are way behind the ball on where technology is in this regard, dude, read some more.
Your fingerprints are your valet switch.
You are just too thick to understand that.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Do as requested, please:
What would the 3-sigma limit be for the control chart with a 150 moving average over 24 hours?
Please define the UCL, LCL, and Moving average for a 3 Sigma control process where the minimum acceptable LCL is 150 degrees F.
Don't want to do that, do you!
Please, oh please tell me I'm wrong again, and you have such a big degree that looks impressive. I'm glad you know so much about coffee brewing with that chemical engineering degree.
All I asked for was a simple mathematical exercise to see if McDonalds, using industry-accepted control points was so out of line with their anti-litigation statistical requirement...
But nobody wants to do that math...do they?
WHY?
As I have said before, LITIGATION costs everyone more than they can possibly know! McD uses statistics to set standards based on food-poisioning litigation. THEN they get sued for not haveing a WARNING because their coffee is "too hot", while at the same time being required to keep it hot to prevent a lawsuit from "bad coffe" nuisance lawsuits where someone puts forth the 140 degree temperature standard...
Does that lay out the reasons for you clearly enough yet? Can you follow that Zin? I don't know how to make it any clearer...
Litigation breeds litigation. If people took responsibility for their actions and weren't rewarded for doing STUPID STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE...
But that's not what we want to talk about is it? We want to let people get money because they are idiots.
Hell, lets set up a taxpayer funded Idiot Compensation Fund so corporations don't get raped by idiots any longer....
(Rolls Eyes)
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Apr 29, 11:34pm)
A:
"I'll bet that particular McDonalds was serving at 220f or something"
Even with anti-freeze coffee, does anyone want to venture a guess what the heat holding capability of liquid coffee is?
I'll gove you a BIG hint: 212F tops...
And even then, if you simply let it sit there freaking out, yes you will do damage.
But that's McD's responsibility...
Drinking hot drinks in a moving vehicle is not irresponsible at all.
No responsbility there whatsoever!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
I am dreaming of little bright colored Z's spinning in my head. My eyes are getting heavy....ZZZZ, ZZZZ, ZZZZZZ.
Norman Krell
A:
>does anyone want to venture a guess what the heat holding capability
> of liquid coffee is
The specific heat capacity of coffee is the same as water, one calorie per gram degree C, and that doesn't change with temperature.
>I'll gove you a BIG hint: 212F tops...
No, that is the boiling point. It can reach 215f-220f because the water is not evenly distributed to atmosphere and it's in a closed container preventing vaporization by introducing a partial pressure. Water can also enter a meta-stable state far exceeding those temperatures called a superheated fluid, waiting to boil over.
>No, you totally disregarded the boimetrics argument introduced, which
> will totally negate your assertations.
They KEY I am talking about is an ENCRYPTION KEY (symmetric pair crypto), not a CAR KEY (FFS!). Biometrics has nothing to do with it. Talk about thick.
A:
"No, you totally disregarded the boimetrics argument introduced, which will totally negate your assertations...Your fingerprints are your valet switch.
""
Again, THAT means nothing if you hold it with your fingers (for the ID) and blow through a section of hose for a diluted sample.
YOU are the one missing the point that UNSUPERVISED testing is inherently dumb.
A:
Tony D, you totally undercut your credibility when you make such totally hilariously stupid claims. For example: autoclaves are used to culture bacteria. That's called an incubator. LOL.
Oh, or do the bacteria need steam pressure for growth? You're killing me, LOL. You know, in the hundreds of labs i've visited over the past 15 years, I've NEVER seen an autoclave used to incubate bacterial cultures. Gee, I guess I just don't have the incredible experience you seem to have Tony! LOL, ROFL.
You're a BSing know-it-all who doesn't know when to quit. Shut up already. You even post replies to yourself!!! Is that forum masturbation?
Tony, stop vomiting out of your brain and fingers and try and only post when you REALLY DO know what you're talking about.
I used to think you actually knew something about Z cars, but now, it's all suspect. Thanks, this thread was VERY illuminating.
'77 280Z
'69 2000 roadster (fathers, but I'm the pseudotechnician)
A:
Geez Loueez
I just want "them" to invent a device that will slap the cell phone out of the idiots hand while driving!
Ed and Jeanne's
ZXelda 1981 280 ZXT: ZXena 1990 300 ZX
1941 Buick Special Sedanette (Betty)
1956 Dodge Royal (Dorothy)
1971 Buick Riviera (Rita)
1975 Ford F-150 Stepside (Fiona)
1992 Firebird (Frieda)