A&Q about 350Z
Q:
I searched extensively but didn't find what I was looking for, just a lot of 'nos' posts.
Let's say we have a 250hp E36.
We can put on a little supercharger, all supporting tuning software, etc., and produce 350hp
We also have a wet kit, fully tuned, all safety measures taken, to produce 350hp. We'll ignore the power curves and torque figures.
From my understanding, the same horsepower increase by nitrous is inherintly more volitale and causes more wear and tear on the engine than a properly setup FI counterpart.
Why? Why not?
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
Nitrous is like an ******* drinking alcohol or the big bad biker. When you are drinking or have your big bad friends to back you up you can boast, puff up your chest and take on the world. But once that bottle of nitrous is gone your just a little pussy. And sooner or later the bottle will run out. Keep the nitrous for the race track. Go with the turbo. Only little **** ricers use nitrous on the street. Also the damage it causes engines versus boost plus most installations are hack jobs. So when it comes to ermergency services cutting you out of your car with a ****** up/illegal nitrous kit its like operating on a land mine without knowing it.
This whole world smells bad, I'd buy another if I had
back what I paid for another mother@#$%@# in a motorcade
A:
D'oh! He specifically said "all safety measures taken" not some back yard hack job but with all the craftsmanship that would go into a quality turbo build! Jeez, spell it out & they still get it wrong!
In my opinion, if the engine is capable (bottom end) of withstanding 350 hp under boost, it should handle the 350 hp under go-fast gas as well. NOS comes on suddenly as does turbo boost. Pretty much equal in my book.
1990 2+2 N/A
SHIFT_style
A:
sure, then we are all idiots, including the car manufactures, etc
Have you shared the left lane today?
A:
I read a couple good posts a while back on this topic, and was hoping I'd refresh them. They were saying how the way nitrous works, it inherintly causes more damage.
I'm more than aware of all the negatives/positives of FI vs nitrous on the $ or useability side, I was asking this specifically.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
NOS spicifically, enhances the burn period!
Look at the chem makeup of NOS and one can clearly see that it adds O2 to the mixture in a way that the N/A engine can injest it and gain O2 for the same swept wolume of air into the engine. That is what it does to an engine.
The problem comes to trying to meter the additional air or O2 molecules in the intake charge. This is where just about ANY system will fall FLAT on its face in regards to metering. This is WHY you hear a 50 shot a 100 shot yada yada yada. WHY, because that is all you will get, if this system is used it will produce 50hp or 100 hp or 200 hp.
What most of you have failed to realize is that NOS is a calculation based on the parameters of your engine. You CALCULATE the amount of enrichment of the fuel to get your 14.5-12.5 mixture.
So what happens in most cases is the car goes lean and you destroy parts that way, starting with the electrodes of the spark plugs and then to the pistons if a lean mixture gets bad enough.
The real issue then becomes the switching of the NOS on and off. With fuel injectioon it is possible to make a circuit that will switch on and off the NOS based an a mumber of parameters of the engine to make it wery effective for the N/A engine. Switching is KEY in such a system, but I only know of one system that will do that, at least that I would use, and again that is a calculation. Learn you basic BOSCH fuel injection system, then get into the formulas for calculation mixture, Then and ONLY then begin work with NOS. You can always choose to do the seat of the pants setup, but in most cases it will end up in broken pistons.
signed pseudotechnician view point, Sniper S^$ker, with girly arms : UCC 1-207
A:
I miss this biker reference.
Whaaa?
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
If there isn't enough fuel, and the NO2 is cracked into it's consitiuent parts, you have excess liberated O2.
So more than just run lean, the O2 can actually ignite and BURN components of your engine---most notably the pistons.
This is why the most sophisticated NO2 systems now utilize WBO2 feedback in the safety loop to disable the NO2 injection of the equation.
Like Jeff points out, first you run lean, and break the pistons, but if you keep in it, and pump that cylinder full of NO2, and it cracks into the separate parts, then that 30%+ Oxygen-Rich Environment will start something burning.
If you are lucky, you break pistons. If you are unlucky, or just plain stoopid, you BURN PARTS...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
I've heard horror stories of people welding rings to cylinder walls or valve to valve seats because of too much NOS.
______________________________________________________________________________
77 280Z - TEC3 Engine Management, Coil Packs, 3.1 Stroker, 550CC injectors, tripple throttle body FI intake, MSA Stage II Cam, etc...etc...
79 Fairlady - Rusty
81 280ZX - DD
A:
Ok Tony D, you are getting more a long the lines of what I was interested. Now you have
"If there isn't enough fuel, and the NO2 is cracked into it's consitiuent parts, you have excess liberated O2.
So more than just run lean, the O2 can actually ignite and BURN components of your engine---most notably the pistons.
This is why the most sophisticated NO2 systems now utilize WBO2 feedback in the safety loop to disable the NO2 injection of the equation.
Like Jeff points out, first you run lean, and break the pistons, but if you keep in it, and pump that cylinder full of NO2, and it cracks into the separate parts, then that 30%+ Oxygen-Rich Environment will start something burning.
If you are lucky, you break pistons. If you are unlucky, or just plain stoopid, you BURN PARTS..."
How does this differ from FI, say if it was untuned and ran too lean?
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
for a supercharged engine would have a shorter lifespan (IMO) because of the constant boost, and use fuel a lot sooner.
If your using a turbocharger depending on your gearing you would not be under constant boost putting less stress on the engine for a longer lifespan of the engine and better fuel economy while not under boost.
NOS still gives you the power when you want it, no extra stress on the engine while not using it. ZEX nitrous systems are the only ones I know of that you can purchase an additional controler to moniter the a/f ratio and automaticaly shut the nos off if the engine runs to lean. Like stated before once its gone your back to 250hp until you can get a refill.
'79 280zx driver/project
'90 240sx sold :-(
A:
I believe and could be wrong without looking into it but some of the standalone systems have the capability of triggering nos systems based on parameters you supply to the system. Careful tuning done this way should avoid the catastrophic failures backyard installers tend to run in to.
I havent even looked in a while but my e6k might have the capability and its an idea Ive toyed with for my na.
Seems like the opinions are if you like turbo than you dont like nos, if you like na then nos is something to look at.
1970 240Z w Haltech the endless project.
1988 Supra Turbo Maft-Pro my daily driver toy.
1968 Dodge D100 the beast truck that just keeps on going.
A:
The problem with nitrous to me is that it is inconsistent due to bottle pressure & temps. This also makes it harder to tune for.
It really depends on what your going for, if you want to go fast straight then NOS is an easy way to get there fairly cheap. To me NOS is not suitable for road course use or street use.
Whereas a supercharger or turbo can get you down the strip fast and also around a road course.
I won't get into the turbo vs. supercharger debate.
Matt
A:
I know all about this. I'm talking about straight up, is the 100hp of additional power created by n2o releasing the additional oxygen and cooling the IM more or less damaging to the motor than the 100hp produced by a supercharger by forcing air into the IM? All tuning is 'perfect' and the duration of the power being supplied is the same.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
Waa? Cooling, from what? The Unburnt 02 burns the next thing it can, at those temps, pistons, rings, the frickin living room couch. As stated in above posts. More damage. Correct me if I'm F'in wrong.
82 zxt 5-spd, oil cooler!
96 240sxes
78/81 jeep j-20
A:
"How does this differ from FI, say if it was untuned and ran too lean?"
At most, you have 19% O2 content in the combustion chamber, and that's when it's full of pure air...
At 19%, metals will not ignite.
At above 21%, almost anything given a hot spot or friction will ignite, and once metal starts combustion that's the end of it.
A glowing hot spot on the piston crown (sharp edge, carbon glowing) can start the combustion, and as long as you feed it enough O2, it will keep burning.
Ever start a cutting torch using a flame, then turn off the fuel gas? With just O2 flowing across the hot metal, it will self-sustain that process.
That doesn't happen with just normal air, as it doesn't have enough oxygen present to start nor support that combustion of metallic parts.
But add that extra oxygen, and it's all over.
Pure O2 will self ignite from piping friction down a stainless steel pipe!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
horsepower is horsepower.
It just has the potential to do more damage than the other two methods due to it being an oxygenate-enhancer through chemical means.
Run Nitromethane, it does the same thing. Those engines go boom regularly as well...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Yer wrong.
When liberated into the airstream, the N2O drops intake temperatures to a possible -40! This increases air density into the engine as well as adding the N2O and the extra oxygen it carries...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Tony_D, you are the man.
"It just has the potential to do more damage than the other two methods due to it being an oxygenate-enhancer through chemical means.
Run Nitromethane, it does the same thing. Those engines go boom regularly as well..."
That was finally the answer I was looking for, though the previous post was great as well.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
Adding Nitrous to your engine loads everything up SUDDENLY.It's hell on bearings. Even though the Turbo comes up fast it still goes through an engine loading phase while building boost.
I think a good visual representation between the effects of an instant Nitrous hit vs. a Turbo coming on Boost is the like difference between dumping the clutch at 6000 rpm and instantly shocking your entire drivetrain and say letting the clutch out easy at say 1500 rpm and then flooring it after the initial load has been applied.
Another way of looking at it is gently placing a 20 pound sledgehammer on your toes and say dropping said 20 lb sledgehammer on your toes from 2 feet up?
One is gonna be mildly irratating while the other will probbaly crush your toes and send you to the hospital.
BTW my friend installed a 100 shot on his built LS1 last month.
First hit on the Dyno BLEW his tranny up. He repaired the tranny and then went to the dyno again...this time his head gasket blew up on the first hit......btw I just Fed Exed his NOS kit to a new owner in TN today.
He realized Nitrous likes to break stuff ,so he sold it before he seriously toasted his engine!!
I have another friend who did almost the exact same thing to his 93 300ZX.
He also sold the NOS kit.
Later,Norm
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998
Post Edited (Apr 27, 9:37pm)
A:
They make progressive controllers for nitrous. It'll cost you a little change to get one, but it's a lot easier on the the car. It brings it on slower so there isn't the sudden shock like a regular on/off system.
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James Roraback
1983 280zxt 11.39 @129.38 - FOR SALE
ZCAR.COM member since Nov 1999