A&Q about 350Z
Q:
I went in and talked to the service manager. Here is what the guts of the relavent parts of the conversation.
Him: The tech started the car after replacing the wheel bearings, ds, [etc.] and it was immediately knocking very badly. He checked the oil and it was over 4 qts low, I think off hand the engine only holds 4.5 qts.
I: Ok, well now we know why the engine had catastrophic failure, low oil pressure, which was what I expected, considering the car ran fine before this and that's usually what it takes to kill a motor that quickly.
Him: Yeah, it was definetely the oil, it must have been very low before it came in.
I: Ok, I see where you coming from I just am trying to put the peices together in how this happened, to see if we can resolve this. 1st, my brother drove the car 15 miles here, no low oil pressure light, no unordinary engine noises etc. He always calls me if he notices anything unusual because he's scared to death of anything else breaking, as you could probably guess by its service history recently. I find this hard to understand. That isn't overly significant to you and I wouldn't expect it to be, but it has here [paperwork] that your master technician, also the technician team leader, signed off that he tested the car, with my brother in it, just before it was worked on. He documented the front end noise and possible culprits, no mention of a low oil light, knocking etc.. Surely your technician would be able to hear knocking, especially to this extent, on a customers car, right?
Him: Surely.
I: Surely the car wasn't driven or handled for no reason between when it was dropped off and when the technician worked on it.
Him: Right.
I: So what I don't understand is how the engine went from perfectly driveable, documented by your best technician, including no engine noise, to completely blown at the initial start of the engine. Even if you drain all the motor oil, as you said earlier yourself, it takes a couple miles before it completely fails [don't have that part of convo in here]. I am not trying to blame anyone, just looking for a reasonable explanation I can give my brother as to why he paid 1,000 to not fix his front end, and have his engine gernade.
Him: When the car is initially started, its under a lot more stress, so it could be that it didn't have low enough oil pressure to cause any problems until the tech started it cold.
I: That's absolutely true, it is under more stress cold. However, I don't see how he started it up without knocking and got it here without any knocking which is documented by your master technician immediately prior to the engine failing time wise. Surely there would be some noticeable noise etc. if the oil pressure was that low considering at immediate startup the engine failed as per your technician's statement. Nor did your technician note any noticeable oil leaks from the car, muchless absolutely catastrophic ones that must occur to lose this much oil within 15 miles, muchless any oil the ground. I'm assuming you check for these when a person asks you about the condition of the car as per problems, pretty major thing right? Please correct me if my logic is off. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation.
Him: Well, I'm not a technician.
I: So you don't atleast know of a reasonable explanation of how this could have occured, regardless of fault?
Him: I don't know.
I: OK.. [awkward silence as he tries to think of something and I stare at him]
Him: Here is Jeff Roberts #, he's the guy who did the initial test drive.
[ENGINE PART COMPLETE]
I: On the front end noise, my brother said the noise wasn't fixed, is this correct?
Him: The car had so many noises, from the differential, u-joints, etc. it was hard to tell which noise was what.
I: It definetely has some wear and tear on it at 120k miles. However, on the paperwork here it says you documented the problem as the wheel bearings, specifically the right side, and a loose driveshaft. This makes it appear you were attempting to and thought you could fix the problem.
Him: Well it's a process, start where you know there are problems. Honestly, the car has so many issues it isn't even worth fixing, at least that's my opinion [he goes into a long story about a guy that dumped 7k into a 93 tercel last week for no reason].
I: So you probably noticed the u-joints and other stuff before you worked on the front, since you were to inspect it all and apprently did so, right?
Him: Yes that's pretty standard policy.
I: So now you say the car was never worth fixing, yet you didn't hesitate to charge my brother 1,000 dollars in which you weren't even confident, based on what you are saying now, that it would solve the problem. He was under the impression, based on verbal and what's written on this receipt, that you were to fix that particular problem. Is it customary to give your customers a 4 figure bill on a car you yourself think is not even worth fixing, without letting them know that or why you think that based on the inspection that they pay for?
Him: Of course not, we always try to help [back to tercel story].
I: So you have an explanation as to why you didn't do that in this partiular case?
Him: I don't know. I'm not involved in every process.
I: Who do I need to talk to then? Is the general manager or 'x' technican in today?
Him: No, they work every other sat., so they'll be in next saturday or mon-fri.
I: Thanks very much for your time sir.
Him: You are welcome.
Class started 2 mins ago so I left a lot of stuff out, but I'm meeting the GM and technician wed afternoon on my lunch break, any tech tips or things they could realistically use against me?
BTW, I know my odds of getting anything significant are at best 1-5%. However, I think I can realistically get some or all of the 1,000 spent to fix the car if I work hard enough.
I:
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
Post Edited (Jul 31, 4:05pm)
A:
Man, **** like that pisses me off. It's the typical run-around.
I think you nailed all the pertinent points in your first go-around.
They implied the 'problem' would be resolved with the $1000 spent and obviously it wasn't.
The 'everything' was fine when it came in and then it mysteriously dumped 4 quarts of oil that miraculously evaporated from their facility just before it was picked up...
It sounds to me like it was half way through an oil-change that was interrupted and never completed.
72 WooHoo!! In good shape too...
72 Rolling Chassis (RB or LS1?)
80 NA SCCA ST2/CP (Car + Tree = Dead)
82 NA 3.0L the rust monster got it
82 ZXT 3.1L, 25psi! Hit in the right rear. ;(
83 parts car
92 TT Sold! ;(
02 Looking for an '03 made in '02
A:
When was the oil changed last?
Time and mileage?
A:
Did your brother drive it there with an oil cap or dipstick missing? Sounds strange, but years and years ago my 1985 Toyota Supra dumped every last ounce of its oil somewhere after I drove it and I have been scratching my head over that ever since. Never saw a huge puddle and underhood was normally clean. I vaguely recall leaving the dipstick off or something lame like that.
Maybe a Toyota coincidence, but odd, odd, odd.
........................................................................................................
'74 260Z
'88 300ZX GLL
A:
He hasn't driven the car maybe 20 miles in the past month. He had the oil changed probably 2-3 months ago. Before he put his most recent tank of gas in, probably 35-50 miles ago including going to the dealer, he also checked it. He checked it after the oil change [cold] and when he got gas as I always tell him to do. Leaving the dipstick out normally doesn't cause oil loss like that, except perhaps under racing conditions. Regardless, if the dip stick or oil cap was missing, I'm willing to be they would have nailed us to the wall because of it. He jumped someone's car a few weeks ago and everything was normal at the time.
Bottom line, there is no excuse and there is no bs they can pull on me. They will probably still f*ck us in the end, but it won't be without a fight and many car forums will here about it. Right now I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt they'll refund some of the money or do something right. All it takes is me to convince 2 people not to go there for general maint. or 1 person not to by a used or new car, and they have already lost. I'm still trying to be polite and respectful to them, I realize none of the people I talk to probably deserve any fault in actually causing the problem. However, I've been around the block and they aren't going to push me around.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
"Keep the oil topped off and figure out yourself, based on YOUR frequent checks, how often it gulps down a quart". ...BACK to my Toyota Dealer story of last year, I brought in a 91 Toyota truck with a V-6 because it had very low horsepower. It had a recent valve job. After they "checked it all out" they sold me a $140.00 TPS and charged me $160.00 to "check it out" and give me that precious knowledge. It still ran like crap. I mean "I thought the dealer could streamline the diagnosis since they have all them tools." Well, after checking and seeing that one side of the v-6 had low compression I found that one cam had been installed two teeth off. So much for dealership miracles. The End. -NK
Norman Krell
A:
If the truck were 'burning' that much oil there should be signs of it on the spark plug(s). Either oily wet or a lot of fluffy burned oil byproduct deposits.
(even in a few hundred miles)
Interestingly, does this dealership make it a practice of giving an added extra, like a free oil change/wash and detail with service over a certain dollar cost. This used to be a common practice.
New kid on the lube rack that picked up the wrong repair order, drained oil, realized mistake and move car back in line to hide mistake?
(too much oil missing)
Contact Texas Motor Vehicle Board,(state) & BBB,(private).
The waste of money story from the service manager sounds 'logical'.
Most dealers will not refuse work. (They can smell the money).
In their business greed is good! (gotta meet the monthly service sales to get his bonus, or keep his job!)
Smarter dealers try to get you to trade in or trade up. But your brother is young so it's easier to charge for repairs than try to get another vehicle sold. Credit issues for an 18 year old, maybe the need for a cosigner.
(Like I said, they can smell the money)
A:
It sounds like this truck was abused beyond belief. Needed a driveshaft, u-joints and front wheel bearings, new transmission, etc ALL WITHIN 122K miles!
If I was a service manager and had to replace wheel bearings in 122K miles, I'd know that the truck had already been throug hell and back (or never serviced). God knows the condition of the oil pan since other under body equipment was so beat up.
Low oil?
Sounds reasonable for the condition of the rest of the truck.
Did the kid drive it in for service and have no idea what the initial oil level was?
Yep.
Catostopic failure by starting it with just a little oil?
Not likely.
Is the car still knocking not that the oil is up?
Did anyone ever DIAGNOSE what the problem actually is?
A:
If the engine was burning oil in that amount it would have looked like you were driving a wildfire. The individuals you talk to probably don't deserve the beating they're getting but it's they're job to deal with you. It is obvious that somewhere in the process somebody half-assed and is getting caught. You're just going to have to dig long and hard to track down who, and then you'll hopefully get your money back or a real fix for no additional price. Just make sure not to let your emotions get the best of you, stay calm and logical. The GM will be a really nice guy until you hint at wanting your money back, then his teeth will come out. Best of luck to you, and don't let him start to push you around, stay aggressive. Good luck.
1972 240z w/L28, tokico shocks and springs, and a 5 speed waiting. Also running high performance ultra mega blinker fluid, that's at least an extra 50hp to the wheels.
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo 5-speed. Belongs to me until my friend get's back from Iraq.
A:
Since the kid has no idea what the condition of the engine OR the oil level when he dropped it off, he can't say dick about what caused the problem.
People selling used trucks would NEVER add heavy goop in the oil to make the engine quiet down before selling it, Oh no, never hapens. And changing the oil to fresh oil and then it's leaks like a sieve and starts knocking again? Naw, that can't happen either...
A:
Or maybe the fine folks he bought the truck from dropped a little bottle of "Heap O'quiet" down the hole before he test drove it and it's just now showing up. Agreed with Hybrid, @ 122k a Toyota truck used under normal or even harsh conditions shouldn't be exhibiting so many troubles. Sounds like someone completely flogged this thing off-road.
Whatever the case, best of luck.
........................................................................................................
'74 260Z
'88 300ZX GLL
A:
h4lights wrote:
> New kid on the lube rack that picked up the wrong repair order,
> drained oil, realized mistake and move car back in line to hide
> mistake? (too much oil missing)
That's exactly what I was thinkin'.
72 WooHoo!! In good shape too...
72 Rolling Chassis (RB or LS1?)
80 NA SCCA ST2/CP (Car + Tree = Dead)
82 NA 3.0L the rust monster got it
82 ZXT 3.1L, 25psi! Hit in the right rear. ;(
83 parts car
92 TT Sold! ;(
02 Looking for an '03 made in '02
Post Edited (Aug 1, 7:44pm)
A:
Zoobee
Hybrid77Z
Read what I wrote in the past two posts. If you still think the way you do, just don't post anymore on the subject. It's a waste of both of our times.
He's had the truck for several thousand miles and gone through 3 oil changes without any issues. I'm not going to keep explaining myself to morons who either are so unsympethetic they are just out to piss people off or don't understand the very basic use of the english language I presented them.
Thanks for the help otherwise though guys, I'm going there tomorrow [losing 30-40+$ taking the time off] to see if I can make any progress. It should be obvious at that point whether I am done dealing with the dealership itself and move on to corporate. I'll do what I can, I'm not here to get free $$ or rip anyone off, just get some justice for the underdog if it is due.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
Listen, the truck was crap.
All the previous work to get it rolling tells you that it had serious issues.
He never checked the oil level BEFORE he drove it in for service that day.
Has anyone even checked his gas for water yet?
Dreaming that the engine was just fine before this is a joke.
No one has yet checked to see whats actually banging.
Deciding that the dealer busted the engine is illogical.
Demanding that the dealer replace an engine should be illegal.
Justice?
There is no "justice" unless there was a wrong done. You have not even taken even the first steps to find out what IS wrong. If you're serious, STOP complaining and start testing. If Toyota messed it up, sue. Just be damn sure first or it's a collossal waste of everyone's time.
Post Edited (Aug 2, 9:15am)
A:
As I expected, you ignored what I said, so I won't bother.
To everyone else, I just got home from talking to the appropriate techs.
They tech filled the oil up and you can barely tell the engine is still knocking/making noise. Their guess was rod bearings. I never heard it while it was knocking loudly to try to diagnose. Obviously no gaurantees on how long it'll last, but it isn't going to blow up on the way home I'm willing to bet. The tech's also said they were sorry the service director wasn't more 'straight up' with my brother and telling him not to fix anything. Along with the fact they claim they did NOT test drive the car with him, and my brother also said this since he was with me today. Any shot of getting the engine fixed, when it was knocking the second they started it, was out of the question.
They tech's, even though it's illogical to even dare question the holy work of the dealer, replaced both u-joints on the driveshaft, checked and filled the fluid of the rear diff since it was making noise, and replaced all of the front suspension parts that were 'optional' per toyota's recall instructions for the steering column, including both front shocks, some sort of mounts, etc. for FREE.
I didn't realize they were a charity. I guess the management had determined partial fault in not telling my brother what they 'meant' and missleading him. The most I was hoping was a refund on the 1200 for the suspension work, and coincidently it was about 1200 worth of work they did for FREE.
I won't hold any grudges and the main tech was a gentleman about it and it was obvious he was concerned with out situation, which isn't even part of his job really. He told [had on the service sheet] and dated when he told the service director to call my bro and explain the situation because it wasn't worth fixing due to the engine etc.
Anyhow, it's a hard knock life. Me and my mom, along with my brothers 1st two paychecks at his new job at petco [still in highschool], are going to get him a new'er' civic which is what he should have got in the first place.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
Post Edited (Aug 2, 11:24am)
A:
Why not try some of those miracle-in-a-can additives and just drive it?
No loss at all in just driving it to HS, work and back (better in fact since you don't care if it gets in a collision or not).
Throw some Bardahl in the oil and run the crap out of it. That's what high school cars are all about, LOL.
A:
With hanky to eye - a dab here and there.
I just love a story with a happy ending.
You have shared an important experience with us that taken in context and understood in the language it was written should have enlightened and enthralled us all.
As one who has shared a harrowing experience or two with the Z community and had a simple story turned into a morality play by others who only read into the word what they think will support their narrow opinion -
I applaud your determination and resilience to weather the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and emmerge from the breach victorious and head unbowed.
Ya done good kid!
Ed and Jeanne's
ZXelda 1981 280 ZXT: ZXena 1990 300 ZX
1941 Buick Special Sedanette (Betty)
1956 Dodge Royal (Dorothy)
1971 Buick Riviera (Rita)
1975 Ford F-150 Stepside (Fiona)
1992 Firebird (Frieda)
A:
erzelda, that means a lot, I appreciate it. I believe you are familiar with this dealerhip since I think you are in Houston, it's the one south on 45 past 1960.
Hybrid, thanks for the later advice. We are considering that option. Not like someone is going to pay more for a car with a rod knock vs one with a blown motor, may as well see how many times he can get back and forth to work with it, it's only a few miles each way. I'm not familiar with the bardahl you mentioned, I'm just adding a qt of 90 weight when I pick it up saturday and see how bad it is.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
A:
I'm happy you noticed. I try to be funny and humor is not always perceived the same way by others.
I liked the way you handled things and I liked hearing about it being resolved. I'm not familiar with that side of town but send the owner or manager a thank you card and praise the guys that helped you.
That goes a long way anywhere to get and keep good service.
On the other hand -
if nothing else works, a former co-worker did this -
His son got cheated about some wheels that wouldn't fit right from a tire shop. The manager would not make it right or refund the money.
Popa dressed in a suit and tie, plopped a brief case on the counter and let the manager and cohorts go through their spiel about how they couldn't do anything.
Bill let it go on and round d round till he felt the time was right -
then----
he shouted and told them he had had enough - he had to cancel four audits that morning to come and settle this.
The manager asked what do you mean audits?
Bill said "I'm an Agent for the I.R.S. - Tax Audit department".
In less than a minute the cash register was open - Bill got his son all his money back and a great discount on a set of tires.
Ed and Jeanne's
ZXelda 1981 280 ZXT: ZXena 1990 300 ZX
1941 Buick Special Sedanette (Betty)
1956 Dodge Royal (Dorothy)
1971 Buick Riviera (Rita)
1975 Ford F-150 Stepside (Fiona)
1992 Firebird (Frieda)
A:
Bardahl (and many others) make oil treatments that quiet down rod knock. That's probably what was in there when he bought the truck to quiet things down. If it quieted down with just adding oil, then you probably have some time left. Forgetaboutit, just drive the thing and save up for the next gotta-have thing.
erzelda, funny stuff. All 18 year old high school kids seem to have more drama, more hopes, bigger problems, more misunderstandings than normal people. It's a sad yet familiar tale where a "new" (insert used vehicle type here) is wronged by everyone that touches it and every trip for service is a ripoff. Too bad they can drag the rest of their family into their drama play.
Yea, damn glad you and your mom won't have to cough up money to cover his questionable purchasing decisions. All part of growing up.
Edit:
And if you looked at all MY responses, they were RIGHT ON. The problem was not "caused" the dealer but by your brother who sucked you into his drama play. Be impartial next time and it will save your time and your money and your blood pressure. It's a MECHANICAL issue, not a personal one.
Post Edited (Aug 4, 6:51am)
A:
This has turned from ridiculous to bizzare.
So let me see if I get this straight:
The engine was 4 quarts low on oil.
And it Seized.
And you claim it's the DEALERS fault while they did work on driveline items?
Please search the archives for my conversation with my idiot brother who lunched the engine in his Honda doing 110mph with only 1/2 a quart in the engine, and how he wanted to blame the guy who just did his brakes "because it was something he should have checked"...
When will personal responsibility come into this equation? You bough a sh*t-box vehicle (or your brother did) and now you are trying to make someone else pay for your poor judgement in vehicles!
Give this a rest. From my idiot brothers' PERSONAL experience I can tell you YES, catagorically, the engine will run and drive FINE with 1/2 a quart of oil in it one second, and then BLOW the next.
in his case it was because the oil went to the top end and couldn't drain back fast enough to supply the whole engine, and BOOM.
I have seen this in a 1977 Chevy Impala with a 350 V8 in it, drove for 120 miles on a quart added to the pan to make the oil light go out. Ran fine, did oil change, got 1/2 quart out plus what was in the filter.
It happens. Get over it. Take responsibility. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE WORKED ON IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CLARIVOYANT AND SEE ALL ON A SH*TBOX OF A VEHICLE.
You did NOT send the vehicle in for a "Total Inspection and Diagnosis" you sent in in for DRIVELINE PROBLEMS.
And using your logic something going wrong with the engine when they are looking to fix axles is a REASONABLE jump? Not in my book.
Personally, I liked the "if you don't agree with me and won't stroke my side of the story, don't respond". That is funny as hell IMO! High entertainment.
Did it ever occur that your BRO might be lying to YOU about checking the oil? Just a thought, I know mine does, but I didn't buy it when his Honda engine went south. Turns out I was right.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Aug 3, 9:28am)
A:
Tony D, did you read my other post in detail? At all? As if I had to ask.
Believe it or not, I'm not a complete idiot. I'd try to convince you but I do not care. If I knew the engine was low 4qts BEFORE it got there, I wouldn't have done anything about it. I completely dropped the case when I found out the tech's didn't physically ride with him BEFORE he dropped it off, as the service manager told me was the case.
My family members don't lie to me about serious issues very often, especially when I am their only hope, can't relate there.
"It happens." Obviously.
"Get over it." I was always 'over' it. It wasn't my car to begin with. I was just looking for an explanation for my little brother to as why his engine blew up.
"Take responsibility." For what? I didn't do anything wrong, I was just looking for the truth.
"JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE WORKED ON IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CLARIVOYANT AND SEE ALL ON A SH*TBOX OF A VEHICLE." Yep. It may be a '$hitbox' to you [and me, I told him not to buy it], but to my 18 y/o brother it was several years of hard work for low wages trying to do the right thing.
If you half way noticed the TIMELINE of what happened by actually reading both posts in detail, you would have ****"ed" before you even started typing.
Thanks for all the helpful advice though in how I could resolve or improve the situation.....
Obviously
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT