Q:
Mileage credit pushes flex-fuel trucks despite lackluster efficiency of E-85
A gallon of corn-based E85 ethanol fuel goes only three-quarters as far as gasoline, costs more at the pump and provides negligible environmental benefits.
So why are U.S. automakers beating a track to Capital Hill and promoting ethanol as an alternative for their vehicles? And why are they producing millions of flex-fuel vehicles that can use the blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline when it is nearly impossible to find E85 at the pumps?
The answers, industry experts say, lie in the perverse incentives of the federal government's mandated, and increasingly stringent, fuel economy program.
Perverse incentive for E85
The government manipulates its fuel economy ratings to give automakers an incentive to make flex-fuel vehicles so they meet federal fuel economy rules.
Ethanol is already one of Washington's most infamous boondoggles, costing U.S. taxpayers $4.1 billion a year in federal subsidies. The money is a political sop to the farm lobby.
But because of ethanol's mediocre mileage performance, the E85 blend is only in 600 of America's 180,000 filling stations nationwide and a small but growing handful in Michigan.
How does a fuel that is 25 percent less efficient than gasoline help increase fuel mileage ratings and help automakers avoid fines that run into the hundreds of millions of dollars? Welcome to the looking glass world of federal regulations.
Manipulating CAFE rules
Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) rules set minimum mileage standards across all vehicle models. For cars, the average is 27.5 miles per gallon. For light trucks (sport utility vehicles, pickups, and minivans), it's 21.6 mpg.
But under pressure from $3-a-gallon gas prices, the Bush administration is recommending that trucks produce an average of 24.1 mpg by 2012. The new rules will be a daunting challenge for automakers already struggling to meet the current standard.
An alternate fuel-friendly government, however, has created an ethanol loophole for carmakers. It lets manufacturers pump up their fuel economy ratings, particularly in the most popular vehicles that tend to get the least gas mileage, light trucks.
Running on gasoline, an SUV like the Chevy Tahoe achieves 20.1 mpg under CAFE's test. Put E85 in it instead and the fuel economy plummets to 14.6 mpg.
America's 100 mpg truck
But for the purposes of CAFE -- and here's where we fall down the rabbit hole, Alice -- the government starts massaging the numbers. It only counts the 15 percent of E85 that is gasoline in its fuel economy rating, increasing the vehicle's mileage figure a whopping seven-fold to 97.3 mpg.
Only Washington, D.C. could actually produce an imaginary 97.3 mpg sport utility vehicle!
The government then takes that number, averages it with the 20.1 gasoline number, runs it through a special formula, and -- voila! -- arrives at the flex-fuel Chevy Tahoe's official CAFE mileage: a healthy 33 mpg.
Such high numbers, naturally, threaten to blow out the federal fuel economy program and make it too easy to comply with. So the feds added a rule: They capped the total benefit of ethanol vehicles toward the CAFE standard at 1.2 mpg.
Because automakers pay big fines on each tenth of 1 mpg that they are below the CAFE mark, a manufacturer like General Motors Corp. could face $180 million in fines for violating light truck fuel economy rules were it not for the ethanol provision. The cost of outfitting trucks to run on gas and E85 comes to about $150 a vehicle, according to General Motors -- or a total cost of $60 million.
General Motors saves a possible $120 million by producing ethanol vehicles and avoiding CAFE fines -- not to mention the huge public relations costs if it were caricatured in the media as a fuel economy deadbeat for missing federal targets.
Automakers argue that ethanol has other potential benefits.
"If we want a game changer, then ethanol is a very good play for this country," Ford Chief Executive Bill Ford testified on Capitol Hill last month.
Ethanol's benefits evaporate
But a comprehensive study in Car & Driver magazine's July issue finds that ethanol's alleged advantages evaporate, leaving only its CAFE credit as a reason for production.
For example, cleaner air is often raised as another reason to use ethanol, but the vegetable fuel increases hydrocarbon emissions as it reduces nitrogen oxide emissions. And ethanol consumes more fossil fuels to produce than it saves in use.
Despite a 51 cents-per-gallon tax break in the production of ethanol, plus a 5 cent-per-gallon exemption from the federal gas tax, ethanol still costs more at the pump than gasoline. As long as that remains the case, few service stations will continue installing pumps for a product that gives customers 25 percent less gas mileage.
So sure enough, Michigan U.S. Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Brighton, this week introduced another ethanol tax scam: Giving subsidies to install E85 pumps at service stations.
The bottom line is that ethanol exists solely for the benefit of the environmental, agricultural and automotive lobbies. Taxpayers are just left holding the bill. (My emphasis added---isn't this what I have been saying all along? Now someone in the Media finally figured it out!)
Says it came frome the Detroit News...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
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George Carlin said it 20 years ago..what does this country manufacture best?...bullsh*t!...
1976 280z 2+2 - Risen from the dead - garaged since 1988. Pallnet Fuel Rail and guage - ES rack and front bushings - 260Z 4Speed - Arizona Z Car Clutch - H4 Lights - Lots more to come...
A:
Meijer is now carrying it now also.
Dave
12/70 240Z, L-28, flat-tops, N-42 head, N-33 intake, MSA 10-2002 cam, ZX ignition, early 5-speed, R-180,4:11 gears, 903 Blue paint.
A:
mainly because of the corn lobby in washington. Im telling you, switchgrass is the way to go...
ABC news story on Switchgrass
then there is BRAZIL and its ethanol success story.
Also, dont forget the vehicles that run specifically on ethanol.... SAE ethanol challenge. vehicles built SPECIFICALLY to run on E85, nd not on gas, acehived higher horsepower ratings, lower emissions AND improved range! more MPG than their gasoline counterparts!
McAdam
1980 280zx with a mildly ported N47 maxima head, 60mm TB, -C- stamp 256 degree camshaft, and a 2.5inch mandrel bent exhaust. yeah, its quick, and yeah, its a 2+2. NOW with MSandS_E power!
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Don't be so quick to slag E85 boys. If you have a turbo engine it's good stuff.
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0
11.7@117mph
diy alcohol inj
z31 eccs/z32 maf
440cc injectors
60-1 hifi t4/t3
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"Energy Independent Brazil" right?
I'll remind you that Brazil's "energy independence" came this year after MASSIVE OIL RESERVES were discovered in their territory.
They have adequate refining capacity to process it, and the ethanol takes the edge off living in the Favela....
They are energy independent because third world countries don't have much power in the first place.
Hell I was 100% energy independent from June 1979 to June 1980. I lived in a packing crate, distilled ethanol from sugar beets, driving around in my synthetic oil lubricated, 100% ethanol powered VW. Heated and distilled with wood I cut myself.
Live in a packing crate, and it's easy to be energy independent!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
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You are talking about PERFORMANCE benefits, and WASTING fuel for PLEASUREABLE TRANSPORTATION!
P.C. as the world is becoming, you MUST realize that E85 is touted as a serious alternative to gasoline---the savior of the mechanized consumer society the west has become.
B.S.!
Sure it's a hoot to juice up the turbo car. Hell my VW was running 48 Webers and running 13:1 Compression on the street when it was running what I guess these guys would call E-0 because it was 100% Sugarbeet Fermented Alcohol. Proofbeaded around 175...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
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That writeup hints at a key concept, but doesn't say it: Ethanol is a renewable resource. Oil isn't. In my book, that's a step forward, not backward.
Another concept worth clarifying is that ethanol blend gas is a choice. It's not like you HAVE to buy it. And even if it's pumped by every tree hugger in the country into their Priuses, good old 'regular' gasoline is always going to be around for the rest of us. If you believe that you're somehow getting screwed by the farm lobby, the government, the automakers or, hell, by all of them just don't buy ethanol gas.
I also think the CHOICE of biodiesel is a good thing. Yes, it's more expensive, doesn't have the power of the dino stuff and you don't get as good mileage. (But I don't think there's much debate that it burns cleaner.) But if you can afford it and don't mind the disadvantages, it's a good alternative. I suspect Ethanol will eventually fall into the same category. The tire-shredding crowd will likely never embrace it. But for mom and pop and the green demographic, it's an easy way for them to 'do their part.'
What I really find absurd are some of the emissions standards. I read recently about the 'SmartCar', the tiny auto that French babe drives in The DaVinci Code. They're trying to import it here. The article said that in Europe, a stock SmartCar gets 60mpg. Here, because of emissions diddling, it will get 40. That makes no sense. How can burning a third more fuel (8 gallons more every 1000 miles) be cleaner than burning less?
'76 280Z driver, '75 parts car
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oil supports terrorists and 24K gold-plated toilets in Saudi Arabia.
at least the extra money spent on E85 stays inside our own economy.
and JR also made a great point: E85 is renewable.
_______________________
Owner of the only ALL-white Shiro Special :)
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Doesn't matter if the gas fumes smelt like strawberry farts, people are not going to pay more money for something worse performance wise even if it saves the world from absolute destruction...
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
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JR, about the renewable resource being a step forward...maybe you missed the part in that article where it says "ethanol consumes more fossil fuels to produce than it saves in use"
However...there is lots of research being done to increase yields of both biodiesel and ethanol in the genetic engineering field. As well as other energy solutions such as thermal depolymerization. It will be very interesting what we will come up with for the next energy supply source. I firmly belive that there will be many solutions that will be very small scale and community based and not a global energy such as oil is now. That and we will just have to start using less energy...say goodbye to your inefficient suburban sprawl that is "The American Dream"....it just wont work in a world without cheap oil. Fact is we're kind of in energy limbo right now...we know theres not enough oil and natural gas to keep up with the growing demand (especially with china coming on up) but i dont think anyone knows how we're gonna deal with it. I sure dont.
As for the fuel economy thing...dont get me started on auto companies, the government and CAFE...what a joke. These are the same companies that destroyed the rail system in north america...3rd world countries would be ashamed to have a rail system like ours.
Sorry for the rant but being a mechanical engineer in training who wants to devote his career to energy solutions i get very excited and angry at the same time whenever people talk about ethanol, biodiesel, etc.
BTW Tony...care to share what kinda fuel economy you got in your bus? hehehe...
An interesting counterpoint to that however...
This ethanol powered "car" won the recent shell eco-marathon with a consumption of 6779 MPG http://www.shell.com/static/eco-marathon-en/downloads/sem_press/Nogaro%20May%202006/Press%20Realease%20SEM%20210506.pdf
L28+megasquirt+turbo=Huge sh!t eating grin (or at least thats what im hoping)
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That's NOT a car... cmon!
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
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Thats why i said "car" ;)
Nonetheless, it still beat out numerous other hybrids and other-fuelled "cars."
Also, do you see scooters getting gas milage this good? Hell, does your lawn mower get anywhere near this good milage? Dont think so.
Like i said before...just an interesting counterpoint.
L28+megasquirt+turbo=Huge sh!t eating grin (or at least thats what im hoping)
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There's some race here in Australia Ive seen with "cars" that look exactly like that which are solar powered, wonder which would get the best milage then? :P
Still, as I said above nobody cares about the benefits if it's expensive and not good for performance etc. There was a guy in the Z31 section just the other day who's daughter or something accidentially filled his car up with that E85 junk and his car went like crap and had to drain the tank to get it out lol
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
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Brian P wrote:
> and JR also made a great point: E85 is renewable.
How renewable will E85 be if you didn't have the fossil fuel to produce it?
Car and Driver has a good article on E85 in the issue with the Shelby vs Corvette comparison.
Maybe we need to change the saying...There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and environmental studies.
_________________
Maybe some day I'll get back to doing some real work on my car.
Darn, I never got the cookie for post #1000.
- A great place to search for answers
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Rome was not built in a day, you gotta start somewhere, somehow. We didn't go to the moon on the first shot either did we? And alternative fuels will not come from the first efforts either.
Where would we be if the first cars were blasted out of the water the way E85 and bio is blasted on this site everytime it is mentioned? Still riding horses fellas. The first cars were about as useless as tits on a boar hog, no roads, no infrastructure, no mechanics to repair them, couldn't go as far as a horse could without breaking or needing to refuel (what gas station?!?!?), they couldn't go places a horse could either. You didn't have to buy every horse you owned, a mare and a stallion and viola! New Horse, or if you were a real cowboy, you just went out on the prarie and snagged yourself a Mustang. They did everything wrong that a horse did right....sounds sort of like E85 or bio compared to gasoline and dino diesel doesn't it?
Ken
'82ZX n/a 2+2
'02 Sportster XL1200C
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Yeah but a car doesnt run away if u slap it or make a loud noise lol And u still have to feed the horse, rest the horse so it doesn't die of dehyrdation etc...
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
Post Edited (Jun 23, 4:47am)
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Ken's point is a valid one. Just look at the Oil Sands in northern Alberta. A few years ago it was not economical to produce usable oil from the sands. Now...cash cow...believe me, I reap the rewards every day.
--------------------------------------
1990 300zx NA
- Custom Exhaust
- JWT Pop Charger
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since everyone is too lazy to click on the links I posted, here is the ABC new story on making ethanol from switchgrass. for every gallon of oil the process uses, you get something like 4 gallons of E85. thats a pretty good turn around.
By ADRIENNE MAND LEWIN
Feb. 1, 2006 It grows throughout the Great Plains and parts of the South, can be used to make ethanol an efficient and environmentally friendly fuel for cars and it has the potential to reduce the nation's dependence on oil.
Switchgrass is the perennial wonder plant touted by President Bush in Tuesday's State of the Union address and in his remarks made today in Nashville, Tenn., where he joked that he could have a new career in farming. "All of a sudden, you know, you may be in the energy business," Bush said. "You know, by being able to grow grass on the ranch and have it harvested and converted into energy. And that's what's close to happening."
* Related: Fact Check: Squaring the President's Energy Policy With Real World Stats
Close, but how close? Bush's goal is to increase research into the production of ethanol using such elements as grass and wood chips, which could make it a cost-effective energy source by 2012. The White House says ethanol could potentially amount to 30 percent of the nation's current fuel use.
But some who work in the industry say the research is already well under way, and what's really needed is a commercial plant to convert switchgrass to ethanol on a large scale.
David Bransby, a professor at Auburn University in Auburn, Ala., supervises research into ways to optimize switchgrass production. He told ABC News that researchers know how to grow, plant, harvest and deliver switchgrass, but now they need a market for it. And the biggest barrier to that is government policy.
Bransby said the Department of Energy will only fund a pilot project to produce energy using switchgrass, about 10 to 15 tons a day. There are no plans for commercial plants that could develop technology to convert switchgrass into ethanol on a large scale.
Craig Stevens, a spokesman for the Department of Energy, told ABC News that the government wants to make sure the projects are viable on a small scale before expanding. "We need to walk before we can run," Stevens said, "and we need to make sure these technologies work."
An Old Process
Ethanol as a fuel is nothing new. Dan Sperling, a professor at the University of California at Davis and director of its Institute of Transportation Studies, noted that even early Model T Fords used ethanol, and it's an ingredient in beer and wine.
Most ethanol produced in America is made from corn a less-efficient material than switchgrass but corn producers are supported by a large lobby and huge government subsidies. There is no similar lobby or investment for grass or wood.
"When you make ethanol from corn, for every gallon of fuel you get, you put in about seven-tenths of a gallon of fossil energy, oil or natural gas," he said. "That's only a small improvement in terms of greenhouse gases."
On the other hand, he said, "ethanol from cellulose [like switchgrass] is a great energy strategy because for every gallon of ethanol, a tiny amount of fossil material [is used.] There's a dramatic reduction in greenhouse gases, so from an energy perspective it's far superior."
"We've known this for a long time," Sperling said. "Why has nothing happened? Part of it is we do need more R and D [research and development], but I think what we really need is a commitment on the industry and business side to invest."
For the government's part, Bush's 2007 budget will include $150 million a $59 million increase over the fiscal year 2006 to help develop bio-based transportation fuels from agricultural waste products, such as wood chips, stalks or switchgrass.
Proven Results
"Corn is an OK source for ethanol," said Daniel Kammen, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley and director of its Institute of the Environment. "But if you really want to hit a home run, you need to go to cellulose."
Other countries have blazed a trail in the conversion of cellulose to ethanol. "Brazil is a big success story in this," Kammen said, noting that 15 years ago the nation began using cellulose from sugar cane to create ethanol, and it now uses 50 percent less gasoline.
Sweden also has two federal plants that create ethanol using cellulose, and there are small plants in Kansas and California working to refine the process here. In Brazil, he said, the price of ethanol is half that of gasoline, and Kammen estimates that here it could be 60 percent, even if some of it is made with corn.
You Do Not Need To Buy a New Car
For consumers, switching to ethanol would cost only about $100 per car. Kammen said all it takes are some new hoses and a new gas cap. "This is actually a switch we could make very easily and very quickly," he said.
Kammen is working to get an initiative on California's November ballot requiring that all new cars sold in the state be flex-fuel ready within five years. According to UC Berkeley, in 2004, ethanol-blended gasoline accounted for just 2 percent of all fuel sold in the United States, though nearly 5 million vehicles are already equipped.
"Converting to fuel ethanol will not require a big change in the economy," Kammen said. "We are already ethanol ready. If ethanol were available on the supply side, the demand is there."
ABC News' Tarana Harris and Brian Hartman contributed to this report.
McAdam
1980 280zx with a mildly ported N47 maxima head, 60mm TB, -C- stamp 256 degree camshaft, and a 2.5inch mandrel bent exhaust. yeah, its quick, and yeah, its a 2+2. NOW with MSandS_E power!
A:
McAdam,
I know i commented on the "ethanol uses more oil to produce" thing but i also said that there are many interesting technologies emerging that are making these alternative fuels more viable. Things like bacteria genetically modified to break down biomass into ethanol, and algae that produce oil for biodiesel production (which can be grown on ponds and double as sewage treatment as they feed off sewage). Also of interest is thermal depolymerization, where you fee ANY garbage into one end and out the other end comes oil, gas, and minerals. Basically accomplishing what takes the earth millions or billions of years, in minutes or hours.
All that said i still dont think any of these energy sources will be able to even come close to the amount of energy that we've come accustomed to using in the form of cheap oil and natural gas. I think its at least as important to look at ways in which we can reduce our energy footprint, as it is to try and find a oil replacement so we can keep on using the copious amounts of energy we think we are entitled to.
I agree with Ken Hawkins in that Rome wasnt buit in a day. What we're seeing now in the alternative energy field is just the tip of the iceberg compared to what we'll see in the near future.
Humans are inherently lazy and resistant to change, but we're also resourceful and resilliant. When the **** hits the fan we'll figure something out.
L28+megasquirt+turbo=Huge sh!t eating grin (or at least thats what im hoping)
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The CAFE rules are played with to produce incentive to the auto & oil industry. Once the E85 is in full swing & at a cheap production cost fuel efficiency will go up. Right now its being used in relatively low compression engines for its octane potential (standard gas engines). When the standard gas engine is phased out so that it runs straight Ethanol (higher compression) mpg will rise.....also good bye classic Z
This whole world smells bad, I'd buy another if I had
back what I paid for another mother@#$%@# in a motorcade
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we'll all just have to get MN47 heads and run 3.1L strokers!! that would bump compression up to 12.5:1 with flat tops. although I would think with some custom pistons (pop ups) you could get 14:1 with decent enough valve to piston clearance. THAT would make for a fun alchy burning Z car.
McAdam
1980 280zx with a mildly ported N47 maxima head, 60mm TB, -C- stamp 256 degree camshaft, and a 2.5inch mandrel bent exhaust. yeah, its quick, and yeah, its a 2+2. NOW with MSandS_E power!
A:
I don't pretend to know the tech end of all this stuff. I just try to find the morsels of truth in everything I read.
Maybe ethanol isn't the nirvana of fuels, but as Ken says, you gotta start somewhere. To add to his 'horse' analogy, one of Rudolph Diesel's early engines (running on peanut oil) almost killed the guy think of the mess we'd be in now if that happened. But he persevered, the technology slowly improved and now maybe quiet efficient diesels may one day even 'take over' large market segments of the automobile market.
I am consistently amazed at the depth of knowledge I read on this forum sometimes. This subject is a good example.
'76 280Z driver, '75 parts car
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The chief reason why dollars are more than pieces of
green paper is that countries all over the world need
them for purchases, principally of oil. This requires
them in addition to maintain dollar reserves to
protect their own currency; and these reserves, when
invested, help maintain the current high levels of the
US securities markets.
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html
-Pete
1978 Z ATK F54-P79
Drink Sobe No Fear Gold
Tokico Illuminas, Poly bushings,Techno Tuning TC rods. Bad Dog frame rails. Toyota 4 piston calipers & power slot rotors. MSA 2.5 turbo exhaust & K&N cold air intake. H4s
Post Edited (Jun 24, 9:32am)
A:
Most of the ethanol produced here in the USA comes from cat cracked petroleum because it's cheaper to produce it that way than from corn.
You want something high yield, try sugar beets, but I digress...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
same engine on gasoline got around 10mpg.
Using more sedate-stock engines I got much better fuel economy, but it was nowhere near as fun as the 1835 with the 48IDA Weber centermount.
Why a Weber? Because they were the only "small" carburettor at the time that easily accomodated the jet sizes required to flow that ethanol. The float inlet jet was humongous!
With my 1500 Single Port, running 13:1 (instead of the stock 7:1) and appropriately leaned out like our "mileage master" competition engine (got 52mpg in mileage competitions in the early 80's, late 70's) I got closer to 25mpg---which was comparable to the engine in stock tune without the cam.
I did run well, strong, and actually outperformed the gas engine, but it would NOT start below 30 degrees. That was a BIG sticking point.
I recently dug out my old "TMEN" Alcohol Fuel Seminar notes, and have been considering doing a megasquirt EFI setup which should not have the cold start problems.
My interest in Alcohol has been, and ALWAYS will be, not a national independence of fuel sources, but an INDIVIDUAL independence on fuel.
A single individual can easily produce enough fuel on a small far to make his family self sufficient for short errands, farm usage, and stuff like that.
Now, going a bit further down long dead hippie roots, a communal collective of farmers nationwide sharing their fuel would allow us all the freedom of movement totally independent of any major fuel corporation, OR governmental regulations.
Ohhhhh Ohhhh!
Maybe that's why if you take your ethanol off the farm you produce it on, YOU MUST PAY TAXES ON IT! Unless you mix it with....GASOLINE!
Hmmmmmmmm....
Yeah, Tony's been on this road for a looooooong time. You even know his collectivist / communalist roots. Walking the walk silently since 1976, waiting for others to become enlightened....
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
"collectivist / communalist roots"
Haha thats funny Tony because me and my buddy were just talking about getting 5 or 6 of our friends together and buying 50 acres or so and starting our own little community. I know i may sound like a huge hippie, but...well...maybe i kinda am. But we'd have a huge garden and grow all our own veggies as well as fuel, have a huge shop for all our automotive, watercraft, and woodworking projects, we'd all get to build our dream houses (my buddy works for a big lumber company so all lumber at cost), we could have farm tax status...the idea sounds better and better the more i think about it.
L28+megasquirt+turbo=Huge sh!t eating grin (or at least thats what im hoping)
A:
4 gallons of E85 is produced from one gallon of switchgrass ethanol...
PLEASE look at the math on that statement. You should have taken some basic math classes while in advanced eduction. Conservation of matter should easily make you understand that the statement is NOT possible.
While the refining process may take less because of more abundant harvest and less fertillizer (oil) consumed, the refining process is still terribly inefficient.
Till they start using nuke power produced steam from a plutonium fast-breeder reactor to heat the process for distillation----this ethanol thing will never work commercially.
It doesn't now without the government pouring massive money into it.
From someone who wants to install sweat equity for a "Mad Max" existence so he can still drive his VW Microbus to the city to pick up flotsam and jetsam after the society collapses, ethanol will be the only alternative.
But for now, Oil rules the road, and will be King for a loooooong time to come!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
The only way to make a VIABLE dual fuel engine is to take a current production FORD CNG vehicle, and run 100% Ethanol in the small fuel cel sometimes used on them.
The compression and spark timing is similar between the two fuels, and a solenoid switchover would make this viable.
This kind of hybrid would actually let you still stay in the HOV lanes in California. No petrol at all (save for the crankcase and transmission/geartrain)...
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Quote:
for every gallon of OIL the process uses, you get something like 4 gallons of E85. thats a pretty good turn around.
instead of corn based ethanol producing 5 gallons of ethanol from every 4 gallons of oil consumed.
McAdam
1980 280zx with a mildly ported N47 maxima head, 60mm TB, -C- stamp 256 degree camshaft, and a 2.5inch mandrel bent exhaust. yeah, its quick, and yeah, its a 2+2. NOW with MSandS_E power!
A:
Youy really think refining and distallation consumes less than a gallon of oil?
It's a sad play on numbers, you are still drinking the coolaid on this one McAdam. Curiously, I saw some documentary by some guy talking about switchgrass while I was printing out photos last evening. It was funny, they were so on the propaganda bandwagon.
Those statistics refuse to add the energy needed to refine the OIL used in the process! They look at such a narrow spectrum of what they define as "energy used in the process" it's unreal. They take for granted electricity as a fixed cost used anyway, and don't factor it in.
It's like murder statistics in the UK, if the crime isn't solved---it does not get reported on the crime statistics! It's not recorded as a homicide unless it's solved. Whereas in America, anything but natural death is chalked up to homicide.
When you factor things equally, the chances of you being a victim of violent crime in the UK actually surpass most large US cities!
Statistics and figures can be made to look any way you want.
The key is NOT to use Oil in the product at ALL. The key is to use ETHANOL alone for the combustible power source. If you mix it with oil based product, it becomes nothing more than a fill or extender, and is doomed to subsidies forever as it's STILL cheaper to cat-crack it from PETROLEUM than it is to make it from ANY biomass alternative!
And that is the FACT of Alcohol fuels. BP/Arco in SoCal has a HUGE Alcohol production facility that produces almost ALL the alcohol used for oxygenate in the southwest (that includes Arizona!)---there is not any corn digestion or switchgrass biomass derived alcohol there, it's ALL cat-cracked from petroleum from the ground. Wilmington refines massive quantities of Alcohol for both automotive applications, and for a major distillery operation which I can not reveal due to non-disclosure agreements that bind me for years to come. If you guys knew even half the stuff about what goes on in the industry you would stop all this ranting about how evil the gas and oil companies are, and realize the real culprit is governmental taxation that is holding us hostage to oil, and preventing free distillation of homegrown biomass alcohol for vehicular usage.
Fill out your BATF forms, and be ready for a visit from the local revenuers! Even as a home farmer making ethanol for your OWN USE you STILL have to post a bond equal to the two week production of your facility in order to make your own. And if it leaves the farm denatured with anything else than GASOLINE, your bond is forefit, and you start paying taxes on all proof-gallons produced.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but -
who is the corn lobby? Who is the farm lobby?
As I understand it the largest agribusiness are Tobacco Companies - R.
J. Reynolds and such.
They own countless food brands and companies that manufacture food products -
And I think (correct me here) own the most farmland in the U.S.
Just currious - the Government is trying to tax tobacco out of business, states are suing and gorging on the cash cow of tobbaco.
Tobacco is not politically correct but environmental subjects are.
Tobacco is going away, increase another product - corn - where to sell it fast and abundantly?
Tobacco lobbyists become corn lobbyists?
Well I don't mean to get into a conspiracy theory - But!
Someone who really knows -
please let me know if there is anything to this.
Ed and Jeanne's
ZXelda 1981 280 ZXT: ZXena 1990 300 ZX
1941 Buick Special Sedanette (Betty)
1956 Dodge Royal (Dorothy)
1971 Buick Riviera (Rita)
1975 Ford F-150 Stepside (Fiona)
1992 Firebird (Frieda)