A&Q about 350Z
Q:
I took my Z to a dyno in Riviera Beach, FL at the Japtrix shop. It was a mustang dyno. Roger operated the dyno, he was helpful, friendly, and professional. I wanted to dyno my Z to have a baseline before begining enigne upgrades.
The numbers! 123 max hp. 146 pounds of torque. I was expecting much less because I was figuring losing a ton of hp through the drive train. I did learn some valuble info. My tach is operating correctly. My air/fuel ratio is really really lean at higher RPM. I am starving my engine for gas at higher RPMs.
I was given the advice of replacing my fuel filter in my electric fuel pump and in my engine compartment. I also plan on installing a Fram G3 fuel filter between my fuel tank and my fuel pump (as seen on Blues tech tips). I was also told to service my injectors which I plan on doing later this year by "Mr. Injector" on E-bay.
The shop said my Z was OK for normal driving around town and an autocross or two but I should take care of my lean air/fuel ratio before returning to the drag strip.
Discussion? Thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------
1978 280Z - I wish I had this much money in my 401K.
A:
I don't know anything about 'Mr. Injector' on eBay, but I would use RCEngineering instead.
http://www.rceng.com/
They'll rebuild, flow test and flow match all your injectors.
It's probably not as cheap as 'Mr. Injector', but I'd bet the quality is better.
72 WooHoo!! In good shape too...
72 Rolling Chassis (RB or LS1?)
80 NA SCCA ST2/CP (Car + Tree = Dead)
82 NA 3.0L the rust monster got it
82 ZXT 3.1L, 25psi! Hit in the right rear. ;(
83 parts car
92 TT Sold! ;(
02 Looking for an '03 made in '02
A:
Mega-Squirt!
Solve that fuel mapping once and for all! You have the typical Bosch AFM Style AFR: Pig Rich down low, tapering to lean near peak. Remember AFM is all out by 3500, so anything above that is PURELY an internal programming of pulsewidth-versus-rpm (assuming WOT)---there is more above 4000 at closer to 13.5 AFR instead of 14+!
Next time have them do a pull from 1500rpm instead of 3000 and you will get better information from the ECU's mapping of the injection at WOT, as well as seeing how the AFM responds---it has a characteristic affect on the curve...
Curious they start at 3000 rpms. Might give a hint to some people on how the engine should be geared for street driving: No power below 3000rpms.
Apply that to a Turbo Car, and you will see the "turbo lag" everybody talks about is really improper driving technique.
The map is good, you can get some more from it though. It's there to be had! it will just take careful tweaking with the stock system to get it all out in-balance and not compromise the other operational areas too much.
<edit> WOAH! What I thought was AFR was power! EGADS MAN! There is something wrong there, you shuold be FAR more rich than that---something is definately affecting fuel flow! They should have given you a run from 1000 in that case. I would really like to see what the AFR was doing down low in the RPM range to see if there was enough fuel there or not---it shouldn't hit 15 or 16 AFR at all until very high up in the RPM range with a cam for breathing efficiencies. The computer is analog, and it's linear in fuel delivery limited by injector flowrates, regardless of rpm above 3500.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Aug 14, 10:12am)
A:
123 hp at the wheels, with 146 ft-lbs of torque, which means that with a bit more fuel you can get at 140 HP, which would be consistent with the 30 HP drive line losses
======
'74 2+2 -- MSA sway bars, Illuminas, Eibach Progressive, Energy Suspension
L28 with MN47, 240Z rods, milled down dished pistons (11.6:1 CR) and 240sx tranny
======
committing suicide in small managable payments
A:
Most Dynos I have seen for stock 280z's are 120-130.
123 I have seen twice.
The lean could be a few things:
- dyno sensor damaged or out of calibration
- low fuel pressure (weak pump, FPR spring weak, restriction in supply)
- AFM spring too tight
Still those are good numbers to be happy with!
Injector Cleaning Service
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A:
Remember the mustang dyno has 10-15% lower result numbers than the other type of dyno gear heads liekto use for higher numbers to brag about.
A:
Thanks for the input so far. When the shop guy asked me what I normally cruise at I told them 3K RPMs, I guess they used that as a starting point for the tests.
Sounds so far, like if I were to check my fuel delivery system, I could have a better performing Z. The fuel filters seem easy enough to swap out before my autocross this Sunday. I will look into the RC enginnering (I read a write-up of them in Grassroots Mororsports) and compare them to Mr. Injector.
After being to the dyno and getting some numbers I can see the addiction of wanting higher and higher numbers, but I really want to use this as a tool for tuning my Z. On the other hand...
------------------------------------------------------------
1978 280Z - I wish I had this much money in my 401K.
A:
" AFM spring too tight"
It would have to be tight as hell to affect it above 3500rpms! So tight, I doubt it would run below 3500 because it was running so lean!
From the chart above, I would agree with the dyno operator and attend to the other things on that list, Blue: Fuel Delivery.
The AFM won't affect the engine above the 3000 to 3500 range, and probably before that if the spring was lightened to open fully earlier.
But I agree, they are good numbers, with a little tweaking, there can be a THIRD vehicle here in stock form making 140+ TO THE REAR WHEELS, getting all those who say my 147 is "impossible because that's what a stock turbo dynos to the rear wheels!"
Hey, the more peopel who spin the numbers up there, the better the database will be.
My 73 was dynoing 80hp, and simply moving the pump from the engine bay to the back made a DRAMATIC difference: to almost 140HP! Similar situation as above: Dyno operator said "your pump is a pusher, not a puller, you are running lean on the top end, and changing your main jet only made it worse, earlier---you have fuel delivery problems. Come back when you moved the pump!"
Three hours later, back to the same water brake, in the same location, but with air temps about 30 degrees hotter, and I spun 140 on a car that showed 80 only 3 hours before.
Fuel delivery can be insidious!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
For Ref:
Stock 280z Dyno Sheet I found some where (could be here)
Max Power 123.9HP (5600rpm)
Max Torque 138.2 ft-lbs (4100rpm)
4,200 to 5,600 rpm O2 shows AFR of ~ 14.7:1
Similar curves to you
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A:
Injector Cleaning Service
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Email me to add your product
A:
Gene's
Injector Cleaning Service
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A:
"After being to the dyno and getting some numbers I can see the addiction of wanting higher and higher numbers, but I really want to use this as a tool for tuning my Z. On the other hand..."
You got it! It's a TOOL, the actual number doesn't mean much, really, to a person really bent on improving his vehicles' abilities.
What is the most valuable, and if you can get a 1000-up run you will see it, that when you start changing stupid little things on your car like a new set of plug wires, or cleaning injector connections, you see jumps of five HP here, seven there.....
it makes you realize just how important attending to seemingly insignificant details can make a major difference.
You will see just how little you have to do to bump that number 20HP to a range of 140, and then realize what I have been saying all along: it's not rocket science, but it does take attention to detail and knowing what does what in the engine bay.
Flash that timing to 20 initial, and see what happens on a run.
Drop the thermostat to 160 degrees, and see what happens.
Disconnect your alternator for one run and see what happens.
Once you start getting into it, and get some curiosity going, you will be amazed what myths get busted, and what interesting conclusions you can draw from those kind of experiments.
This is, of course, aside form dyno tricks like running gummy fat tires and gravel in the spare tire well to make for better transfer.
Like Blue says, having an independent O2 sensor to verify the dyno for at least one of the runs might be a good idea---calibration drift is a real world thing!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
In THAT one you can see the value of the 1000rpm pull!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Notice that the torque and power intersects at 4900rpms in both pulls.
This should occur at 5250rpms, as it's a mathematical derivation.
Something is wrong with the Cal on that dyno, or something else is going on there!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
I love my G-tech,
I can do all those things mentioned above but all my dyno pulls have been paid for.
1970 240Z w Haltech the endless project.
1988 Supra Turbo Maft-Pro my daily driver toy.
1968 Dodge D100 the beast truck that just keeps on going.
A:
Hey Tony, when you say something is wrong becuase they cross at 4900rpm what kinds of things do you mean other than improper calibration? Also if it was an improperly calibrated dyno would this indicate that higher numbers are possible or lower numbers?
1977 280z: Intake, exhaust, high flow cat, header, euro damper, cam, MSD, adj. FPR, 3.7 lsd, F+R sway+strut bars, 2580lbs
1984 300zx: intake, exhuast, high flow cat, headers, JWT ECU, F+R sway bars, F strut bar
06 WRX TR
A:
Yes, please explain how it is known exactly the point the power and torque curves intersect. Pretty cool, but I'd like to know why.
Thanks Tony.
Alex
'77 280Z
'69 2000 roadster (fathers, but I'm the pseudotechnician)
A:
Speaking of Rear wheel Dynos.
Post Edited (Aug 14, 8:41pm)
A:
Actually, they do intersect at 5250. The numbers on the left and right side don't line up exactly. 140 on the left lines up with the 150 on the right. The blue lines intersect right around 132. The red lines interesect around 127ish. I don't understand why someone would print out a graph like that.
A:
I'm still seeing them intersecting at 4900rpm. Both the red and blue cross right at 4900rpm. The hp numbers on the left and the torque numbers on the right aren't going to line up.
1977 280z: Intake, exhaust, high flow cat, header, euro damper, cam, MSD, adj. FPR, 3.7 lsd, F+R sway+strut bars, 2580lbs
1984 300zx: intake, exhuast, high flow cat, headers, JWT ECU, F+R sway bars, F strut bar
06 WRX TR
A:
hey tony... im off to the dyno soon... within the next few weeks.
finished the valve guide seals (on head, no spring compressor..haha), so no more leaks (the smoke went away!!!!!).
ill let you know my numbers... the car seems pretty in-tune... running the best its ever...so ill see what i can whip up!
77Z- (mfg. 7/77)
"Arm-chair Autox'er"
A:
I thought the 280Z was around the 150hp mark from the factory?
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
A:
Rodger at Japtrix... why does that sound so damn familiar...
"The Z's disease won't make anything turn black, wither, and fall off, nor turn cancerous." - Tony D
"Take it to a track where BOTH drivers mean business or it's just one sided mechanical masterbation." - Hybrid77z
A:
300zxt: The 280z puts out roughly 170hp gross or 145hp net but both are at the crank. For rear wheel hp most average in the 120-130hp area.
1977 280z: Intake, exhaust, high flow cat, header, euro damper, cam, MSD, adj. FPR, 3.7 lsd, F+R sway+strut bars, 2580lbs
1984 300zx: intake, exhuast, high flow cat, headers, JWT ECU, F+R sway bars, F strut bar
06 WRX TR
A:
The blue lines represent BOTH torque and horswepower for each run.
The red lines intersect at 4900, and blue lines instesect at 4900, BOTH are skewed way off course.
It is NOT "red horsepower blue torque" read the legend on the graph, they are concurrent readouts from two different runs. The intersection you should be looking for is the blue/blue intersection, and the red/red intersection.
This is another reason it is important to do the pulls throughout the whole rpm range of the engine: you can get the skew from the chart and correct the curve like you do on an eddy current dyno.
i stand by what I posted previously: the lines should intersect at 5250, they don't!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Check the units of horsepower and you will find it is a derivation of torque.
One of the conversion factors used is a multiplier of 5250.
This results in graphs that always intersect at 5250 when dynoing a car and reading out torque and horsepower on the same scale.
Mathematically inevitable.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up 280z/300zx! Thought that might of been the difference in the figures I've seen. Kind of off topic but not, how much potential power can be put out by the L28 engines overall and at what level of modifications?
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
A:
Tony et al, those plots are perfectly OK/consistent. Torque and horsepower are equal at 5252 for both the red run and the blue run.
Both runs are using the 10-140 scale for horsepower and 10-150 for torque. Red run is 126 hp and 126 lb-ft at 5252 rpm, blue run is 131 hp and 131 lb-ft at 5252 rpm.
A:
$40k and a ton of research will get you about 450hp.
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/280zxt/
300zxt wrote:
> Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up 280z/300zx! Thought that
> might of been the difference in the figures I've seen. Kind of
> off topic but not, how much potential power can be put out by
> the L28 engines overall and at what level of modifications?
>
72 WooHoo!! In good shape too...
72 Rolling Chassis (RB or LS1?)
80 NA SCCA ST2/CP (Car + Tree = Dead)
82 NA 3.0L the rust monster got it
82 ZXT 3.1L, 25psi! Hit in the right rear. ;(
83 parts car
92 TT Sold! ;(
02 Looking for an '03 made in '02
A:
That engine is making 278hp at below 5000rpms, at 8 psi boost.
The prior 450 was at 23...
Improvements have been made since then.
Electramotive made over 720hp with theirs, and it was only a .040" Overbored L28 running stone-age electronics.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
Thanks for pointing that out, Dan.
Like I said, 'something was wrong' and it looks like the dyno operator did a funky scaling on the HP different from Torque.
That could come under "proper calibration" couldn't it Dan? ;^P
For mine, I like to keep them on the same scales when possible. Mine all cross where they need to, my scales are equalized. Old Habits die hard.
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
The red lines intersect at approximately 5250 and the blue lines do the same, like I said in my previous statement. My previous statement is 100% correct. Reread it.
A:
Get off the horse, dude and settle down.
First, Dan Baldwin is the ONLY person here to make ANY congnisant argument for the skewing of the lines due to differing graphing scales for torque and horsepower. As it's graphed it's misleading, we are not looking at an equalized graph with the same scale for torque and horsepower---we are looking at a graph where the intersections look skewed to 4900 rpm because of the graph's inequal scales.
Second, follow the little dotted lines down from where red intersects red, and blue intersects blue, and you will see who is blind given the above facts...
I anxiously await your apology. Public apology. For trying to start something.
Do you agree the red dyno run ceases at well below 5400rpm? If not, this goes towards the mathematical dearth here, and basic reading of graphical information has to be lumped into that as well, apparently!
Stay civil, dude, use a ruler if you have to!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Aug 15, 1:30pm)
A:
So in the end does this mean that the car could have more or less hp/torque due to the bad calibration crossing at 4900rpm?
1977 280z: Intake, exhaust, high flow cat, header, euro damper, cam, MSD, adj. FPR, 3.7 lsd, F+R sway+strut bars, 2580lbs
1984 300zx: intake, exhuast, high flow cat, headers, JWT ECU, F+R sway bars, F strut bar
06 WRX TR
A:
It's a graphical error, the whole chart should be shifted to the right if the scales were calibrated to be 150 on both torque and horsepower.
Because the graph to the left is only calibrated to 140, it skews the one line lower in it's intersection of the other line by about one block.
If you take that calibration scaling error, and make the correction, the crossing point moves right on the graph, letting them cross at 5250 like they are supposed to...
At least someone else sees a crossing point on similarly colored lines at 4900 like I do. You must be blind as well, Hulio... LOL
DAMMIT! I spent all last week up working at Graham Packaging in Henderson and didn't look you up! I was staying at the Holiday Inn next to Sunset Station off Stephanie and Sunset.... BAH! I claim Alzheimers!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
That is too bad. That holiday Inn is like 5 minutes from where I am. Actually thats the same Holiday Inn that I stayed at when I came for my interview. Next time you are out here let me know before hand so I can call and remind you. Not only are you blind but you are getting forgetful on me. LOL.
So if I understand you correctly his dyno numbers would still be the same but the graph would be shifted to the right. Is that correct? Just wondering becuase if you remember earlier this year when I dynoed my 280z again my graph came out similar to this where they crossed at 4400rpm. Also my peaks off. My torque peaked at around 4000 rpm and my hp at 4900rpm. Basicly I'm just wondering how bad calibration can screw things up. I mean at first I bummed because the numbers were way lower than my previous dyno so I thought something was wrong but later when looking at the graph I was wondering why the graph looked very funky. I'm thinking he didn't calibrate it right or something. Even after all these months this dyno has still got me asking questions. Maybe I'll try posting my first dyno vs. my second dyno.
1977 280z: Intake, exhaust, high flow cat, header, euro damper, cam, MSD, adj. FPR, 3.7 lsd, F+R sway+strut bars, 2580lbs
1984 300zx: intake, exhuast, high flow cat, headers, JWT ECU, F+R sway bars, F strut bar
06 WRX TR
A:
Thanks for the link WW, man that is some expensive power!
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project
A:
Thanks for the simple and clear explanation. And no, they visually intersect at 4900 like you said.
Cheers,
AAA
'77 280Z
'69 2000 roadster (fathers, but I'm the pseudotechnician)
A:
The peaks are the peaks, it's just a mathematical thing that they cross at 5250. Bet yours cross there as well....
Either way, it shouldn't change much at all. So many variables enter into it, the number is really irrelevant unless you do something and run it again on the same setup to see the relative change---which is what the dyno is meant for anyway.
it's a comparative change.
i can't count the times someone has gong from 175 or 185 stock tires to 205 or 215's along with some other ridiculous mod like a tornado filter or something, and then viola! More horsepower.
Tell em to change back to the tires and wheels they originally had, and so sad, too bad, they find the numbers go back down.
The key is to change one thing, make a run. Change another thing, make one run.
not the cheapest way in the world to do things, but if you're organized, and do it the right way, you KNOW what works for sure, and what doesn't!
In this case, the lower span on the one scale doesn't move the whole CURVE to the right, ONLY the corssing point through the action of the line moving vertically UP the graph when the correct scale is used. Imagine having both the lines on onionskin paper (see through), basically changing the SCALE FACTOR moves the line UP (or the HP curve DOWN, either way the result is the same) making the point where the intersection occurs move along the horizontal axis.
I tried to figure out how Dan saw the scaling difference, and then realized for some reason my computer puts the "windows bar" right over the upper left corner of the photo when my cursor is over the photo. I never saw the missing 150 on the left scale because that stupid Microsoft Dongle was hovering on my screen every time I looked at it!
It's Bill Gate's Fault, DAMMIT!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Aug 15, 10:45pm)
A:
So does the stock mechanical fuel pump on a 240Z work efficiently as a puller?...because there certainly is no pump near the tank on my '71. If not, is this the reason they added an electric pump near the tank in the 260Z?
Actually...in one of your previous posts you discussed the benefits of an electric pump to prime the fuel system: Subject Title: "Ahhhh Grasshopper!" from Jan 28.
I've been doing some engine tuning lately, just trying to optimize the stock components that I have...and if the stock mechanical pump is handicapping my engine...it would be helpful to know.
1971 240Z
HLS3026814
A:
Let me get comfortable, have a Beverage, relax, and see if I can relate the story.
Here is the image you should have in your mind when reading my reply:
The pusher I had was an electric fuel pump, not the stock mechanical unit. He was right, the pump was of a design (obviously) that required more suction head at the inlet by the close proximity of the tank because it started flowing GABS more fuel when it was relocated to the back.
The stock pump will supply things nicly IF you have the proper fuel regulation setup on it, and allow it to work like it's supposed to!
Most electric pumps are NOT designed for operation sucking through the whole fuel line of the car. They are designed for a large inlet line, with little resistance or short pull to get the fuel it needs, and then push it up front.
The stock mechanical pump is, on the other hand, designed to suck through the fuel line in the car. Until you get a situation where the float bowls are draining faster than they can fill it (you will see this in the five gas on the dyno), there really is no reason to change form the stock pump short of priming the carbs after sitting while hot, or sitting in longterm storage.
The stock pump is an odd animal, as it changes pressure as the engine speed increases. It used a fixed orifice to do this, it WILL NOT work properly with a restriction style regulator BETWEEN the carbs and the fuel pump. The stock pump is designed to work with a BACKPRESSURE style regulator and FUEL RETURN LINE with constant flow in it while running.
if you bear that in mind when you design or source the components, everything should work out fine. I forget where the stock pump starts petering out as far as flow rate goes, but it can handle some decent mods before even being considered a weakpoint. Especially the older die-case rebuildable pumps---they have all sorts of flow tricks you can do, unlike the sealed stamped sheetmetal covered ones common in the replacement shops today.
Good Luck!
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
This is the image EVERYONE should have when reading my replies!
It sure would clear up a lot of misinterpreted posts, that's for sure!
See Tony D post, Think "The Dude relaxing, having a beverage, chilling out."
Really goes to state of mind that always seems to be implied as a malicious intent far too often...
I swear to Christ, sometimes I come on here, and people must think:
When in reality, and in real life, the thought should be waaaaay more:
Seriously!
LOL
I had to post this. It makes a lot of sense, now I can cut and paste when someone gets frisky, and make it clear where I'm coming from!
;^P
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
Post Edited (Aug 16, 12:26am)
A:
Haha! Thanks for the info Tony...the Dude abides...
1971 240Z
HLS3026814
A:
I installed one of the "ticker pumps" that has one-way valves in it on the wife's 260Z. Makes for a quick wire jump to the battery positive after it's been sitting 4 months, and the thing usually fires right up before the battery looses it's oomph.
Trying to crank that mechanical pump till it primed would kill the battery.
With 5Z's rotating in driving service between two people with other full time cars, they tend to sit for a while, which is why I'm all for priming after "long term storage".
Man, that pump is nice, and if my mechanical ever fails on the road, I can simply bypass it, and hook up the ticker up front to get me where I need to go.
My standby pump is already in there, standing by, just an electrical connection to make, no gas on my hands (I'll make the boy do the mechanical pump bypass! LOL)
People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
My brother from another mother calls himself "Willie D"
A:
LOL Is that Kramer's cousin in that limo?
Injector Cleaning Service
THE FREE ONLINE INDEPENDENT Z STORE
Email me to add your product
A:
Yup, that's from my car (before I sold it).
--
1977 280Z - SOLD